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WEEHAWKEN PLANNING BOARD
Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on December 16, 1999. This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 4 different web pages.
2 MR. KIENZ: Yes.
3 MR. SEGRETO: What is it, the 16th?
4 MR. KIENZ: For the record, this
5 is A-18, and I will leave the extra copies
6 up here for your professional team.
7 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
8 MR. KIENZ: Do you want her to
9 briefly explain that to you, Mr. Chairman?
10 MR. GOULD: Yes.
11 MR. KIENZ: Laura, would you
12 please walk through the three pages quickly
13 so the board understands.
14 MS. STAINES: Do we have a chart of
15 the parking area?
16 All right. That's fine.
17 Let me take a moment then to
19 There are two charts and one
21 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Chairman, I know
22 I said this once before, I have to
24 This practice of having two
25 witnesses testify simultaneously is aberant
1 to everything I have learned about the
2 practice of law in the conduct of either
3 the judicial or the administrative hearing.
4 I have never encountered it. It makes my
5 job absolutely impossible to try to keep
6 track here of who said what.
7 Why can't we have a process where
8 one of them finishes, and then if there are
9 going to be responses by another planner,
10 it comes later on.
11 MR. DUNN: We are about finished
14 Ms. Staines, please answer the
16 MS. STAINES: Yes, certainly.
17 What I have provided the board with
18 is a copy of the parking chart dated
19 7/19/99. That was included with the civil
20 engineering documents that were originally
21 submitted to the board, and this is, by the
22 way, corroborating the modest changes that
23 were made to Buildings 1 and 3, 4, 5 that
24 were represented to the board at last
25 week's testimony, so that the total number
1 of parking spaces were, in fact,
2 consistent, and as I represented
3 previously, the buildings are conceptual in
5 Therefore, the exact building count
6 we determined as each individual comes in
7 for site plan review, but these are
8 relatively consistent with our proposal.
9 The overall summary, however, take into
10 consideration the requirements per the
11 ordinance and how, in fact, we have met the
12 ordinance requirements.
13 I have done that summary, and this
14 is dated 12/9/99, which was my initial
15 attempt at the chart, which was completed
16 earlier this afternoon.
17 The first summary is the total
18 parking per use as proposed, and as we go
19 down the list, we identify the office
20 space, as I testified earlier, is 1,324,800
21 square feet.
22 There is a similar calculation for
23 the retail, the number of residential
24 units. I segregated the number of senior
25 housing units because the parking
1 requirement is distinguished from the
2 residential and further down to the hotel
3 conference banquet, et cetera.
4 To the right is a column that
5 identifies per ordinance, and I have
6 utilized both the requirements in the PD
7 zone and the primary parking regulations in
8 order to calculate a reasonable parking
9 requirement for the overall community.
10 What I am referring to is in the PD
11 district. The only requirements for
12 parking are specifically for office use,
13 and when public transportation is utilized
14 to the maximum extent possible, or
15 practicable, the planning board may reduce
16 the parking authority such as the office
17 use will be supplied with one parking space
18 per 1,000 square feet for a total of 1325
19 spaces, and the residential uses in this
20 particular case I have included the senior
21 housing for a total of 1632 dwelling units,
22 requires 1632 spaces for a total of 2957
24 We felt, because of the inclusion of
25 the additional uses and the mixed-use
1 component, it would be prudent to provide
2 additional spaces to accommodate the hotel,
3 banquet, restaurant, marina and other
4 public parking facilities.
5 Therefore, the balance of the
6 parking as represented in the middle of the
7 page includes marina parking at 300 slips,
8 one space per slip plus one slip for two
9 employees, for a total of 303, as an
11 A breakdown for the Arthur's Landing
12 Restaurant, which is provided for 80 seats,
13 public parking, which is not a required
14 parking count per the ordinance, we have
15 provided 90 dedicated parking spaces
16 on-site in three separate locations.
17 The ferry use does not have a
18 predescribed parking count within the
19 ordinance. We have provided 1500 parking
20 spaces for the patrons and employees of the
22 In addition to all the requirements
23 that we have identified, we have provided
24 in excess of that requirement an additional
25 63 parking spaces such that our total of --
1 I would still like to provide the caveat --
2 approximately, in order to accommodate
3 specific site plan approval and
4 architectural adjustment, more than meet
5 the parking requirement necessitated
6 on-site per the ordinance.
7 MR. GOULD: Okay. Okay. Thank
8 you. All right.
9 Any other questions from any board
11 All right. Then at this time I
12 would like to open it up for questions for
13 anybody not represented by Mr. Segreto.
15 MS. WADIA: Judy Wadia.
16 MR. TURNER: Do you want to use
17 the microphone, Judy, use the microphone.
18 MS. WADIA: I would first like to
19 ask Mr. Giardino about the view planes.
20 The 1150 total linear feet of view
21 corridors, are the viewing points for the
22 viewing -- for the view corridors all on
23 public property?
24 MR. GIARDINO: There are two
25 distinct parameters.
1 The viewing points from above the
2 Palisades are all on public property. The
3 1150-foot parameter is a parameter which
4 states that the view corridors must be
5 available at grade within the development.
6 That is the property of the applicant.
7 MS. WADIA: What I am asking is,
8 from the point where the public, for
9 instance, at the top of the Palisades
10 views, look through the view corridor to
11 the water, are those points on public
13 MR. GIARDINO: Yes.
14 MS. WADIA: Okay. Are all of
15 these points accessible to the general
17 MR. GIARDINO: Yes.
18 MS. WADIA: Okay. Then -- now,
19 I, like Mr. Segreto, I am a little mixed up
20 about who said what in last time's meeting.
21 I would like to -- I think that
22 Laura Staines said that the goal was -- the
23 goal of the development was to reduce the
24 use of automobiles on the site.
25 MS. STAINES: That is a goal, yes.
1 MS. WADIA: What --
2 MS. STAINES: That is a goal, yes.
3 MS. WADIA: You mentioned the
4 width of the road and off-street parking in
5 the development, but you didn't mention the
6 width of the sidewalk.
7 Oh, we have to share this.
8 MS. STAINES: Thank you.
9 Actually, I won't need the plans.
10 The sidewalks will vary throughout
11 the community. There are some sidewalks
12 that are six feet wide. There are other
13 sidewalks that are 12 feet wide, and the
14 prime area in the central view corridor --
15 MR. KIENZ: Steve, would you put
16 up the overall plate, please.
17 MS. STAINES: That's all right.
18 This is fine.
19 In the 80-foot-wide view corridor
20 that incorporates the circular drive, we
21 have proposed a 20-foot-wide sidewalk along
22 one side. There are varying widths far in
23 excess of the minimum requirement in the
24 code, and all this is to accommodate
25 pedestrian transportation throughout the
2 MS. WADIA: Okay. Will there be
3 bicycle access and storage for bicycles at
4 the ferry terminal, light rail, health club
5 and restaurants?
6 MS. STAINES: I don't know of all
7 those facilities.
8 MR. DUNN: Could you repeat the
9 locations, please, the ferry, light rail.
10 MS. WADIA: Will there be bicycle
11 access and storage at the ferry terminal,
12 the light rail, the health club and the
14 In traveling in Europe I found that
15 many of the streets, the actual streets,
16 and sidewalks have a bicycle path on the
17 street that's marked so that -- I mean, the
18 goal of this development, and it will only
19 work if as many people as possible, both
20 residents and workers, can get to the
21 public transportation, and many of the
22 sites are quite a distance away from the
23 public transportation.
24 MR. DUNN: And the question is?
25 MS. WADIA: The question is, are
1 there going to be bicycle paths as part of
2 the sidewalk and will there be places for
3 the bicycles to drive and places for the
4 bicycles to park at some of the public
5 transportation sites?
6 MS. STAINES: I could speak up.
7 Currently, we have proposed no
8 distinct bicycle paths.
9 MR. SEGRETO: May I suggest that
10 either one of you might want to use mine.
11 MS. WADIA: Thank you very much.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Since -- I will speak
13 loudly. Don't worry, gang.
14 MS. WADIA: I would recommend
15 that, perhaps, a condition would be some
16 allowance for bicycles in part of the
17 sidewalks so people could use bikes.
18 In order to protect pedestrians from
19 the elements, will there be any kinds of
20 arcades along the sides of the buildings?
21 For instance, will these sidewalks be
22 covered sidewalks so that when it rains
23 down there people don't get completely
24 soaked where they are walking to the ferry?
25 MS. STAINES: With all due respect,
1 Judy, I think it might be premature to
2 eventually get into the actual building
3 design. That's certainly a consideration
4 when the design comes forward for site plan
6 MS. WADIA: Okay. Which one of
7 you two spoke about common open space last
10 Will all of the common open space
11 that you designated be cleaned up and
12 landscaped and everything?
13 MS. STAINES: I want to make it
14 clear that there are two elements of the
15 open space along the Palisades that will be
16 kept in their natural state.
17 These, to the best of our knowledge,
18 have never been contaminated and will be
19 left uncapped.
20 MR. KIENZ: Excuse me.
21 Steve, would you put up the open
22 space plan.
23 MR. SEGRETO: The last response
24 now, which is an engineering question, most
25 respectfully, is not within the competence
1 of the planner.
2 MR. DUNN: The objection is
4 She is responding to it.
5 MR. WEIR: Plate 267.
6 MS. STAINES: The open space,
7 perhaps, to which you are referring -- and,
8 Judy, correct me if I am wrong -- is the
9 open space that includes the waterfront
10 park as well as the developable open space
11 which is on grade and which the individual
12 will be using for open space activities,
13 those will, in fact, be capped, yes.
14 MS. WADIA: I didn't ask actually
15 if they would be capped.
16 I asked if they would be cleaned up
17 and landscaped and made quality open space.
18 MR. DUNN: She is not using
19 "cleaned up" in the environmental sense,
20 are you, Judy?
21 MS. WADIA: No.
22 MS. STAINES: You meant in the
23 aesthetic sense.
24 MS. WADIA: Yes.
25 MR. DUNN: Spruced up.
1 MS. WADIA: Spruced up.
2 Thank you, Mr. Dunn.
3 MS. STAINES: There will be a
4 further landscape plan provided for all the
5 respective open spaces, yes. If you mean
6 cleaned up as far as in an aesthetic sense,
7 once the land is capped, there will be a
8 landscape plan, it will be cleaned up and
9 further available for utilization of the
10 public, yes.
11 MS. WADIA: I believe you said
12 that 13 percent of the common open space
13 requirement will be satisfied by the
14 Palisades, and that will equal about 18 to
15 19 acres of the Palisades will be counted
16 as common open space?
17 MS. STAINES: No. Judy, I believe
18 what I said was 13 acres is the Palisades.
19 MS. WADIA: 13 acres, not 13
21 MS. STAINES: Nice try.
22 MS. WADIA: Okay. Well, it's
23 hard from one meeting to the other to get
24 it straight.
25 That 13 percent, the Palisades now
1 is in a very degraded condition. There are
2 lots of weeds, trees and debris on the
4 If the Palisades is indeed to
5 satisfy the common open space requirement,
6 would it be possible for you to be
7 responsible for sprucing up the Palisades
8 and planting on the Palisades evergreen
9 trees like Hawthorns and white pines and
10 having berry bushes so that some of the
11 native wildlife will be attracted back to
12 the Palisades?
13 MS. STAINES: In this particular
14 instance, I think, it's appropriate to
15 defer to both the environmental engineer
16 and the civil engineer, since the
17 particular requirement of the code is to
18 preserve it in its natural state. If the
19 board so chooses, there may be direction to
20 those respective professionals to provide
21 whatever planting is appropriate to
22 maintain or improve its aesthetic and
23 environmental quality.
24 MS. WADIA: Okay. Then I would
25 ask the board that there would be some
1 condition that if this 13 acres is indeed
2 counted as quality open space, that it be
3 improved to the state where it would
4 attract at least wildlife to the area.
5 If this 13 acres is counted as
6 common open space, will there be walkways
7 or trails on the Palisades provided?
8 MS. STAINES: It's difficult for me
9 to address that, Judy, because the slopes
10 are quite steep.
11 There will be roadways, as you are
12 aware of, pershing Road does bifurcate the
13 Palisades, and there will be a sidewalk and
14 a walkway. There already is an existing
16 Any additional walkway or path, I
17 think, will be subject to the purview of
18 the board. Since there are requirements
19 that it's maintained in its natural state,
20 the introduction of the walkway may have an
21 effect on that requirement.
22 MS. WADIA: I might mention that
23 if the Palisades is properly planted, it
24 will help reduce stormwater runoff -- you
25 know -- if there are proper trees there.
1 At a future time I do have some
2 additional questions for Mr. Lanza, but I
3 don't see him here tonight.
4 MR. DUNN: Okay.
5 MS. WADIA: Thank you.
6 MR. DUNN: Okay. Thank you.
7 MR. GOULD: Okay. Any other
8 public questions?
10 MS. ELSASSEL: Ruth Elsassel.
11 I hope you will bear with me. Quite
12 a few things were commented on tonight that
13 I have notes on I will have to go through.
14 I just wanted to ask Mr. Giardino,
15 you stated to Judy that all the view
16 corridors will be accessible to the general
17 public and that they are all on public
18 properties, is that correct, the view
20 MR. GIARDINO: I believe what I
21 stated was that the viewpoint is on public
23 MS. ELSASSEL: The viewpoint. Does
24 that include all of them including the two
25 viewpoints to the south or is that
1 different on the view corridor plate?
2 MR. GIARDINO: Steve, would you
3 please return to the view corridor.
4 MR. WEIR: Plate 212.
5 MS. ELSASSEL: I believe that is it.
6 MR. GIARDINO: Thank you for helping
7 me clarify.
8 MS. ELSASSEL: To the south, to
9 southerly view corridors.
10 MR. GIARDINO: To the south of
11 Hamilton Avenue, there is a series of homes
12 which back onto the Palisades and the
13 property of the applicant, so you are
14 correct in your supposition, which lies
15 behind your question, that from the point
16 here southerly the view corridors within
17 that region are fronted by private
19 MS. ELSASSEL: So they are not
20 accessible to the public.
21 MR. GIARDINO: That is not totally
22 correct either.
23 The Port Imperial Boulevard, which,
24 as we know, goes from a north to a south
25 direction across the site, is accessible to
1 the public, and the view corridors cross
2 that road, so from that position they would
3 be accessible to the public.
4 MS. ELSASSEL: But the ones up on
5 the cliff are not.
6 MR. GIARDINO: In this area here,
7 this little piece here and this little
8 piece here back up to private properties.
9 MS. ELSASSEL: The following one,
10 the southerly one.
11 MR. GIARDINO: This one here.
12 MS. ELSASSEL: Is that over the Port
13 Authority/Lincoln tunnel vents? That's
14 where the park is, correct, and, I believe,
15 the Lincoln Tunnel?
16 MR. GIARDINO: The vents fall in
17 this region right here. This is to the
19 MS. ELSASSEL: Where are the vents?
20 Is it to the south of the vents?
21 MR. GIARDINO: This view corridor
22 shown here is to the south of the vents.
23 MS. ELSASSEL: Is to the south of
24 the vents.
25 MR. GIARDINO: Yes.
1 MS. ELSASSEL: That's in someone's
2 yard also, is that what you are saying?
3 MR. GIARDINO: My survey doesn't
4 indicate the type of ownership there, so I
5 really can't answer the question.
6 That's Mr. -- that's for Mr. Lanza.
7 MS. ELSASSEL: Thank you.
8 I would just like to state that in
9 the zoning on Page 2369, Section 23-10, it
10 says, "Regulations concerning planned
11 development," and under D it says, "To
12 encourage preservation of the beauty of
13 recognized topographical features; namely,
14 the face of the Palisades, and to preserve
15 the public enjoyment of the view from the
16 top of the Palisades," so I am questioning
17 -- it says, "To enjoy the public view from
18 the top of the Palisades," if they are view
19 corridors, and it says, "To preserve for
20 the public enjoyment."
21 Shouldn't all the view corridors be
22 accessible to the public? That's my
23 question, and I would like if that could be
24 reviewed and an answer given either today
25 or at another -- at the next meeting.
1 I would also like to ask the
2 question, will there be an opportunity to
3 ask questions pertaining to the development
4 site at another time for the public,
5 because I -- I am only basing it generally
6 now -- will there be another opportunity?
7 MR. DUNN: Yes.
8 MR. GOULD: I think after the
9 town has their consultants give their
10 reports, you will have a chance to ask
11 additional questions.
12 MS. ELSASSEL: Thank you.
13 I haven't spoken to Judy at all on
14 this. It's interesting.
15 I have a question here I wrote this
16 afternoon, is this development
17 pedestrian-bicycle friendly, so I will just
19 more -- make certain things a little more
20 clear to me and possibly to the public on
21 Plate -- if you would be so kind to have
22 two plates shown that are closer up of the
23 development site, Plate 198, showing the
24 center portion of the development and then
25 the one to the north, 201.
1 MR. WEIR: Bear with me -- with
2 me for a second while I put it up.
3 198 was the first one, ma'am?
4 MS. ELSASSEL: Yes, please, either
6 MR. WEIR: Plate 198.
7 MS. ELSASSEL: Thank you.
8 Well, Port Imperial Boulevard goes
9 along the entire property, but the one
10 question is, how wide is the sidewalk
11 there? Is it on both sides of the street,
12 and will there be bike lanes?
13 MS. STAINES: Port Imperial
14 Boulevard is a 68-foot right-of-way -- I
15 believe I testified to that earlier --
16 because the roadway width varies from four
17 lanes to the south of Pershing Road to two
18 lanes, plus a turning lane -- I am sorry --
19 I may have misstated that -- four lanes to
20 the north of Pershing Road, two lanes and
21 turning lane to the south of Pershing Road,
22 there will be included on the easterly side
23 a sidewalk that will provide access to the
24 ferry terminal and/or to the southern
25 entrance side. In fact, the roadway will
1 continue even northerly into West New York.
2 MS. ELSASSEL: What is the width of
3 that sidewalk, please?
4 MS. STAINES: That sidewalk is to
5 be ten feet wide.
6 MS. ELSASSEL: That sidewalk is ten
7 feet wide all along Port Imperial
9 MS. STAINES: That's correct.
10 MS. ELSASSEL: And are there bike
11 lanes along Port Imperial Boulevard?
12 MS. STAINES: We have not provided
13 bike lanes at this point along Port
14 Imperial Boulevard.
15 I do wish to correct one element,
16 and that is the westerly area adjoining the
17 brownstones, the sidewalk will be reduced
18 in width from the ten feet to the four feet
19 in width, and it may be adjusted based on
20 the engineer's testimony.
21 I believe that site plan is coming
22 for site plan review. I should defer to
23 the engineering documents for an exact
24 calculation of that as to the sidewalk.
25 MS. ELSASSEL: Did you say from the
1 brownstones south it would be four feet?
2 MS. STAINES: The westerly edge of
3 the brownstones themselves, there is a
4 landscaped area that we have introduced at
5 this point, and that requires an adjustment
6 to the width of the sidewalk.
7 I will have to confirm that exact
8 width of the site plan.
9 MS. ELSASSEL: South of the
10 brownstones, the wide walk.
11 MS. STAINES: In front of the
12 banana building, I am afraid I don't have
13 that exact dimension in my head. I will
14 have to confirm that also with the
16 MS. ELSASSEL: All right. Thank
18 Could you please describe now a
19 person walking down Pershing Road will walk
20 to the ferry and the light rail from
21 Pershing Road?
22 MS. STAINES: Yes. Certainly.
23 Although the westerly edge of
24 Pershing Road is not on the drawing, as you
25 proceed to the point at which Pershing Road
1 turns easterly, there will be a sidewalk
2 that allows pedestrian travel to the point
3 at which it connects the internal
4 north/south road. There are sidewalks on
5 both the easterly and westerly edges, and
6 the pedestrian will not only have an
7 opportunity to walk along that roadway and
8 interface not only with our own sidewalk,
9 but also have access to the waterfront
10 walkway, so there are parallel roadway or
11 walkway systems at this point to the ferry
13 They also have the opportunity to
14 take advantage of the jitney service that
15 will also be providing internal
16 transportation throughout our community, so
17 they are not limited exclusively to the
18 pedestrian access to the ferry terminal.
19 MS. ELSASSEL: How wide are those
20 sidewalks along that center road there?
21 MS. STAINES: They will be
22 approximately six feet wide on either side
23 of the road.
24 MS. ELSASSEL: On either side of the
25 road, and around that circle?
1 MS. STAINES: This is going to
3 It's a little premature to give an
4 exact dimension, only because we anticipate
5 this to be a pedestrian plaza and there
6 will be significantly more sidewalk in
7 order to access the retail activities along
8 the streets.
9 MS. ELSASSEL: Will there be an
10 access point somehow from Pershing Road to
11 Port Imperial Boulevard, because that is a
12 long way.
13 If someone is going to work everyday
14 and they want to walk, they will have to go
15 all the way down to the center, go around
16 that circle and all the way to the light
17 rail or the ferry, and it seems to be a
18 great distance, isn't it?
19 Is there a way that it could be more
20 accessible friendly to a pedestrian in a
21 closer -- in a more direct route to the
22 light rail and ferry?
23 MS. STAINES: Well, perhaps I
24 should point out there is an existing stair
25 to the south of that turn in Pershing Road.
1 As we are aware of, that stair provides
2 access to the westerly edge of the Port
3 Imperial Boulevard, but, Steve, perhaps you
4 can give us the full site plan for a
6 Is that 198?
7 MR. WEIR: I believe it's Plate
9 MS. STAINES: Thank you.
10 There is an additional pedestrian
11 access proposed in the general vicinity of
12 Old Glory Park, which will give you access
13 to the westerly side of Port Imperial
14 Boulevard, in closer proximity to the light
15 rail station and to the ferry terminal and
16 to the adjoining building. That, in fact,
17 will be a significant convenience to
18 pedestrians utilizing those services.
19 MS. ELSASSEL: Will there be plans
20 submitted to the board for preliminary on
21 those -- on that access route up above?
22 MS. STAINES: My understanding, the
23 applicant and members of the board will
24 confer as to the particular means of
25 vertical transport and that will be part of
1 a further application, yes.
2 MS. ELSASSEL: And are you checking
3 on that, where you said the steps presently
4 exist, is that what you said, and people
5 can get onto Port Imperial Boulevard from
6 the existing steps?
7 MS. STAINES: I beg your pardon?
8 MS. ELSASSEL: I don't think you
10 MS. STAINES: You are absolutely
11 correct. I stand corrected.
12 The steps give you access to
13 Pershing Road, and Pershing Road provides
14 access to the internal road.
15 The reason I deferred to the
16 northerly mode of transportation is it will
17 be a much more convenient access from JFK
18 Boulevard to Port Imperial Boulevard itself
19 and/or the adjoining buildings.
20 That's the reason I believe that the
21 board has an interest in developing the
22 concept for that connection.
23 MR. DUNN: But you are not
24 proposing steps from Pershing Road to Port
25 Imperial Boulevard.
1 MS. STAINES: I stand corrected,
2 Mr. Dunn -- thank you very much -- no, we
3 are not.
4 MS. ELSASSEL: And on the streets
5 that go east/west to the walkway, does
6 every roadway there have sidewalks on both
7 sides of the street?
8 MS. STAINES: They -- yes, they do.
9 MS. ELSASSEL: Throughout the entire
11 MS. STAINES: Yes, they do.
12 MS. ELSASSEL: And is there also
13 traffic going around that traffic circle or
14 that center plaza?
15 MS. STAINES: Yes.
16 Let me take a moment to describe it.
17 This will be two-lane traffic proceeding
18 both north and southbound, one lane in each
20 When it reaches the circle, however,
21 it's two lanes in one direction only for
22 safety purposes so that traffic will
23 circulate in a counterclockwise direction.
24 MS. ELSASSEL: And then the
25 pedestrians will have to walk around that
1 circle to continue their walk through the
2 center of that section. Right?
3 MS. STAINES: No, pedestrians will
4 have an opportunity to cross in the circle.
5 Perhaps I might use, as an example,
6 Logan Square in Philadelphia, which is of a
7 similar nature, and it becomes a
8 significant pedestrian mode of activity and
9 also an ideal way for pedestrians to cross
10 an otherwise very pedestrian-heavy
12 This will be a heavily-landscaped
13 central core, and not only be an aesthetic
14 asset, but it will also be a node of
15 activity for retail uses.
16 The fact that we have limited the
17 automobile traffic to two lanes going in
18 one direction will allow it to be an
19 extremely safe intersection and crossing
20 and offer alternatives.
21 MS. ELSASSEL: All right. Thank
23 Now could we turn -- go to Plate
24 201, please.
25 MR. WEIR: Excuse me.
1 What's the subject matter of that
2 one so I can track it down more quickly?
3 MS. ELSASSEL: That's the northern
6 MR. WEIR: All right. There it
8 Thank you.
9 Plate 201.
10 MS. ELSASSEL: All right. I just
11 wanted to ask how people from the parking
12 garages from the ferry, how will they get
13 to the ferry, will they have to cross over
14 that road?
15 MS. STAINES: Actually, we have a
16 number of alternative ways of getting from
17 the building that -- I believe you are
18 referring to this building. Is that
20 MS. ELSASSEL: Yes, wherever there
21 is parking. Both buildings contain
23 MS. STAINES: This building is
24 actually containing the parking that's
25 designated for the ferry terminal. We
1 refer to it as Buildings 3, 4, 5.
2 Let me point out to you that at this
3 juncture we have identified an elevated
4 crossing over Port Imperial Boulevard,
5 which provides access for the patrons of
6 the light ferry line -- I am sorry -- the
7 light rail line to Buildings 3, 4, 5,
8 without the necessity of an on-grade
9 crossing of Port Imperial Boulevard.
10 Those individuals and the patrons of
11 the garage itself have the advantage of
12 using a second or third-story retail
14 There will an additional above-grade
15 elevated crossing which will connect the
16 garage structure to the ferry terminal, and
17 there will be an internal vertical
18 transportation, whether it's an escalator
19 or elevator is premature to say, and in
20 that way the patrons would not have the
21 requirement of crossing the street on
22 grade, they may elect to do so, and
23 traffic-controlling devices at both the
24 north and south intersection will allow for
25 safe crossing at that point.
1 MS. ELSASSEL: And you stated the
2 ferry will be about 50 feet high.
3 MS. STAINES: The ferry will not
4 exceed 50 feet above.
5 MS. ELSASSEL: What will be
6 contained in that ferry building other than
7 a ferry terminal for people to purchase
8 their tickets, and so on?
9 MS. STAINES: Actually, I am not in
10 a position to explain the entire design.
11 Our firm is not providing the design for
12 that ferry terminal.
13 I will defer that to the applicant.
14 MS. ELSASSEL: I was wondering why
15 it has to be 50 feet high.
16 When will those plans be submitted
17 to the board?
18 MS. STAINES: I am afraid I am not
19 the person to ask.
20 MS. ELSASSEL: The board -- will
21 they be submitted to the board?
22 MR. GOULD: Hold on a minute,
24 Okay. Continue.
25 MR. DUNN: Mr. Kienz.
1 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Dunn, it's going
2 to be submitted in conjunction with the
3 site plan application, obviously, for the
4 ferry terminal.
5 As we indicated, that will be during
6 Phase 1. An exact time frame I can't
7 really give to you.
8 MR. DUNN: I think I just heard
9 the witness lower view corridors by
10 testifying she has a 50-foot bridge --
11 MR. KIENZ: I heard that, too.
12 MR. DUNN: -- across the road
13 from the ferry terminal, but -- so maybe
14 she could explain that.
15 MR. KIENZ: The question is, you
16 just testified that there is going to be
17 above-grade sheltered crossings over the
18 main roadway in front of the ferry
20 Mr. Dunn's question is, how does
21 that affect the view corridor?
22 MS. STAINES: They will be either
23 to the north or the south of the view
25 The exact location I was merely
1 identifying with the little red dot that
2 they will provide access from Buildings 3,
3 4, 5 to the ferry terminal.
4 The view corridors are at
5 approximately 16 degrees or diagonal to the
6 pier line from Old Glory Park. If that's
7 the case, the actual crossing will not
8 interfere with the view corridor or the
9 view of the shoreline, the westerly
11 In addition, there may be an
12 alternative location immediately north of
13 the view corridor.
14 MS. ELSASSEL: In other words, the
15 ferry will not -- the ferry terminal will
16 not be submitted to the board during the
17 preliminary application, and it's such a
18 vital part of this application, so much, it
19 relates to the other buildings, is it not
20 important that we have those plans
21 submitted before any determination is made
22 on this application?
23 MR. DUNN: We note your
25 MS. ELSASSEL: Will plans be
1 submitted at this time during this
2 application period for Pershing Road and
3 Baldwin Avenue and the light rail?
4 MR. KIENZ: The answer is we are
5 not responsible for the light rail. That
6 has a life of its own.
7 As far as the roads go, we will be
8 doing road schemes, and that will come in
9 under the actual occurring process of the
10 site plan applications as we go through the
12 MR. DUNN: Not Pershing Road.
13 MR. KIENZ: I don't think
14 Pershing Road -- I don't think Pershing
15 Road is part of the phases that we talked
16 about as part of those.
17 MR. DUNN: It's not part -- it's
18 not part of the PD application, the cross
19 section of Pershing Road.
20 MR. KIENZ: Well, the traffic
21 engineer is going to be addressing that.
22 MR. DUNN: All right. I thought
23 I misunderstood you that was not -- that
24 part of the site plan.
25 MR. KIENZ: It's going to be
2 MR. DUNN: Okay.
3 MS. ELSASSEL: I have a question,
4 Ms. Staines.
5 Last week you stated parking
6 structures are not included in the square
7 footage, is that correct, parking
9 MS. STAINES: When calculating the
10 FAR. That's correct.
11 MS. ELSASSEL: They aren't.
12 Why aren't they included? They are
13 part of the building.
14 MS. STAINES: I am just following
15 the dictates of the ordinance. They
16 specifically exclude the parking structure
17 in calculating that square footage.
18 MS. ELSASSEL: If you did calculate
19 them separately, do you know what the
20 square footage of the parking structures
21 would be?
22 MS. STAINES: It would take me some
23 time to calculate that, but I am sure that
24 can be done.
25 MS. ELSASSEL: Because there is a
1 limit, is there not, on how many square
2 feet are developed on this site? Could
3 that possibly exceed the square footage
5 MR. DUNN: We have to follow the
6 ordinance. The ordinance says parking
7 structures are not included.
8 MS. ELSASSEL: They are not
10 MR. DUNN: They are not
11 included, but -- you know -- we have to
12 follow the ordinance.
13 The witness has testified as to what
14 the ordinance is.
15 Mr. Segreto will certainly
16 cross-examine her on that, and I will look
17 at it, and our experts will look at it.
18 If they are not included within the
19 parking structure, if they are not included
20 within the FAR, then they are not included
21 within the FAR.
22 MS. ELSASSEL: The reason I am
23 asking this question, if they were isolated
24 parking structures, self-contained, but
25 they are part of a structure of an office
1 structure, of the residential, and that's
2 why I am questioning.
3 MR. DUNN: All right.
4 MS. ELSASSEL: Thank you.
5 Is the ferry terminal calculated in
6 the square footage?
7 MS. STAINES: I believe I testified
8 last week that the ferry terminal square
9 footage would not be included at that point
10 because the exact size had not been
12 However, in relation to the overall
13 square footage, it's a very small
14 percentage. My understanding it's
15 approximately 39,000 square feet, and the
16 FAR will be amended to include the square
17 footage of the ferry terminal.
18 MS. ELSASSEL: Okay. Thank you.
19 And I take it that the height
20 elevations, all the penthouses, elevator
21 penthouses, mechanical devices, whatever,
22 will be included in the height -- the
23 height limitation?
24 MS. STAINES: I believe you are
25 referring to the North Weehawken view
1 plane. The penetration of the North
2 Weehawken view plane, they are taken into
4 MS. ELSASSEL: But they cannot
5 exceed the plane?
6 MS. STAINES: That's correct.
7 MS. ELSASSEL: That's all I have for
9 Thank you very much.
10 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
11 Okay. Any other public questions?
13 MS. WADIA: Can I just say one
15 MR. DUNN: Is it a question? We
16 want to get to Mr. Segreto.
17 MS. WADIA: No. This is just a
19 I did not ask Ms. Staines about the
20 rooftops, because at a previous meeting I
21 had asked both Mr. Goldberg and Mr. Turner
22 if I might make a presentation on rooftops,
23 and they agreed that sometime in February I
24 would be able to speak about rooftops, so I
25 am not neglecting it at this time, but I
1 will talk about it at another time.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. GOULD: Okay. Thank you,
5 All right. Any other public
7 Okay. All right. At this point we
8 are going to take a break, and then when we
9 come back we will continue with Mr.
10 Segreto's cross-examination.
11 We will take a ten-minute recess.
12 MR. SEGRETO: We will start his
14 MR. GOULD: Start. I am sorry.
15 (Whereupon, a short recess is
17 MR. GOULD: Okay. Could we have
18 a roll call, please.
19 THE CLERK: Anthony Rosas.
20 MR. ROSAS: Here.
21 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
22 MR. BARSA: Yes. Here.
23 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
24 MR. TURNER: Here.
25 THE CLERK: Mr. Gould.
1 MR. GOULD: Here.
2 THE CLERK: Mr. Cabrera.
3 MR. CABRERA: Here.
4 THE CLERK: Ms. Kravitz.
5 MS. KRAVITZ: Here.
6 MR. GOULD: Okay. Thank you.
7 Mr. Segreto, I think you are up now.
8 Would you like to start your
10 MR. SEGRETO: I can hardly wait.
11 MR. GOULD: I think our records
12 show that you have 370 minutes.
13 MR. ROSAS: How many minutes?
14 MR. BARSA: How many hours?
15 MR. DUNN: Don't even try to
16 figure it out.
17 MR. SEGRETO: You probably picked
18 an indigestible number.
19 At the end of the 370 minutes I will
20 probably be remonstrating that you should
21 give me more time, but let's do it a little
22 bit at a time.
23 MR. TURNER: The only thing we
24 know for sure, we are going to end one
25 millennium the way we are going to begin
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 the next.
2 MR. DUNN: It's 9:17.
3 L A U R A S T A I N E S
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SEGRETO:
5 Q Good evening.
6 A Good evening.
7 Q That's where the charm sets in.
8 One of the responses that you gave to the
9 question from the audience was that parking
10 structures are not included in calculating square
11 footage under the ordinance.
12 Would you be good enough, just -- I am
13 going to return to this subject later -- but could
14 you tell me what section of the ordinance you rely
16 A Yes.
17 Let me see if I can find the precise
19 Q Tell us the page number.
20 A Let me find the appropriate one.
21 Q All I want is the section. I don't
22 want you to read it into the record. I just want
23 the section that you relied upon and the section
24 number and the page.
25 A Certainly. The page number is 2308.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q 2208?
2 A No, 2308.
3 The definition is for "floor area."
4 Q The definition is?
5 A "Floor area."
6 Q Okay. We will come back to that
7 another time.
8 Now, I had the opportunity today, I
9 thought, of examining the entire planning file
10 dealing with this application, and I cannot help
11 but notice you have many, many documents, you and
12 your colleague, on the table before you.
13 I don't recall having seen most of those
14 documents when I was in Doug's office.
15 Were all of these documents that both of
16 you have here this evening in Mr. Kienz's office
17 when I was given the opportunity to ostensibly
18 examine all of the planning documents file?
19 A No.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Kienz, can you
21 please explain it to me?
22 THE WITNESS: These --
23 MR. SEGRETO: Not you. You are not
24 the one that represented to me that I saw
25 all of the files.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Doug, do you know?
2 MR. KIENZ: First off, I am
4 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry. I am
5 sorry. I -- I apologize. I even wrote
6 your name down. I am sorry.
7 MR. KIENZ: The second thing is,
8 it would be better for her to explain it
9 because you will understand and it will
10 save you time.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, all the items in
12 this portfolio are copies of the documents
13 that you had an opportunity to see earlier
15 I was out of the office for the past
16 three days in performance of my -- in order
17 to prepare the documents that were
18 necessary for tonight's presentation. I
19 was required to take these documents with
20 me in order to complete the calculations
21 that were requested by the board.
22 Q Do I understand that if I see the
23 official files --
24 A These are excerpts of the files that
25 you had 100 percent access to.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q For example, there is an enormous
2 book there with tabs in it.
3 Ma'am, tell me what the title of that bound
4 book is.
5 A Thank you.
6 It's referred to as "Port Imperial South,
7 Weehawken, New Jersey."
8 Q May I see it, please.
9 A Certainly.
10 Q Are these the original documents
11 from your file? Are these copies of the
13 A These are all prints that were
14 generated from the computer that you had access to
15 earlier today, with the exception of three
16 sketches that I completed approximately five
17 o'clock this afternoon.
18 Q Does that include the two
19 handwritten yellow sheets of notations in black?
20 A May I see that, please.
21 A All these letters you also had in
22 the previous testimony.
23 Q These are original notes by someone,
24 aren't they?
25 A Yes.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q Are they your original notes?
2 A No, they are not.
3 Q Whose notes are they?
4 A I am not sure I recognize the
6 Q How -- if these are not your notes,
7 how did they come to be in your file? Did someone
8 do it surreptitiously?
9 A That is not my personal file.
10 Q Whose file is this?
11 A This is an office file. As I
12 pointed out, they are copies of all the documents
13 that were generated through the computer during
14 the last several months, all the copies of which
15 were available for me -- available for you from
16 early this morning.
17 Q I don't want to be disagreeable.
18 I have seen a number of things now that I
19 haven't seen this morning.
20 MR. DUNN: You are entitled to
21 use the witness -- to refresh the witness's
22 recollection or to ask the witness whether
23 those documents were relied on for her
25 MR. SEGRETO: That's not the
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 criteria, respectfully, counsel.
2 It was a subpoena that was issued by
3 the board, signed by you in the absence of
4 the chairman, with consent of counsel,
5 which required the documents to be
7 MR. DUNN: At this meeting.
8 MR. SEGRETO: Instead of my going
9 around and around on this, I would ask that
10 counsel, sometime between now and the next
11 meeting, segregate everything that they
12 have here and make it available for my
13 inspection again at your office.
14 You hold on to that, please.
15 MR. SEGRETO: Counsel, will you
16 agree to that?
17 MR. KIENZ: I can't agree to a
18 statement that says "segregate everything"
19 because we had a truck load of things that
20 you didn't look at.
21 MR. SEGRETO: I am talking about
22 what is on this table.
23 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Segreto, please
24 don't yell at me.
25 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, you
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 don't need to raise your voice.
2 MR. SEGRETO: Is it agreeable to
3 you to produce all of the documents and
4 boxes and files, which are on the table now
5 in front of the two planners, that you make
6 them available for my inspection at an
7 appropriate time at our convenience?
8 MR. KIENZ: Yes.
9 MR. SEGRETO: Thank you.
10 Q Now, this application involves a
11 good number of separate lots in separate blocks.
12 Isn't that so?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And all of the lots, which are the
15 subject matter of this application, are not under
16 common ownership, are they?
17 A I am not certain I know the answer
18 to that.
19 Q Didn't you even look at the
20 application which was filed by your client in this
22 A Yes, I have looked at the
24 Q And don't you know that the
25 application lists the lots and blocks and lists
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 the record owners?
2 A I am not aware of the various
4 Q My question was, are you aware of
5 the fact that the application, which you reviewed,
6 lists all of the lots and blocks as well as the
7 record owners of each of the lots? Were you aware
8 of that?
9 A No.
10 Q Well, you have indicated that you
11 reviewed the application, so I assume you have
12 here in your file -- would you get your copy of
13 the application out, please?
14 A No, I do not have a copy of the
15 application in my file.
16 Q Where do you have it?
17 A I have reviewed a copy that was in
18 the possession of the applicant's attorney.
19 Q When did you first review it?
20 A I am sorry. I don't recall the
22 Q Well, was it before the application
23 was filed or was it while these proceedings were
25 A Shortly afterwards.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q Shortly after --
2 A Shortly after the proceedings began.
3 Q And by the time the proceedings
4 began, you had already arrived at many conclusions
5 about the zoning aspects of this application, have
6 you not?
7 A Repeat your question again, please.
8 Q I will withdraw that last question.
9 When did you start to do your planning
10 analysis of this particular project?
11 A Shortly after we were engaged to
12 perform the work.
13 Q When were you engaged?
14 A Perhaps three years ago.
15 Q Well, we happened to have your
16 contract of engagement in the documents that were
17 filed today, so you worked about two years on this
18 application without ever having seen the
19 application. Isn't that true?
20 A Are you referring to the application
21 that's before the board?
22 Q This application.
23 A Yes, that would be correct.
24 Q And for you to express opinions
25 about compliance or lack of compliance with
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 ordinances, don't you have to know something about
2 whether or not you have one large consolidated lot
3 or whether you have a whole series of separate
5 A I am not sure I follow your
6 question, Mr. Segreto.
7 Q Well, you have expressed some
8 conclusions as a planner that this application
9 meets all of the requirements of the ordinance.
10 Do you remember having said that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did you take into account whether or
13 not on the individual lots there is compliance
14 with the bulk standards of the zoning ordinance?
15 A Mr. Segreto, perhaps I should
16 clarify a planned development district.
17 Individual lots are irrelevant as far as
18 this application is concerned.
19 Q I understand that.
20 My question is -- I take it then your
21 response to my question is that, yes, you can
22 opine on compliance without knowing the bulk
23 standards applicable to that particular lot?
24 A Your question is extremely difficult
25 to answer.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q Well, I don't want you to ever
2 answer a question where you don't feel capable.
3 You can say, "I don't know the answer," say
4 "I don't know the answer."
5 A I don't believe your question is
6 possible to answer the way you phrased it.
7 Q Something wrong with the syntax?
8 A You presume that I am not familiar
9 with the bulk and the area requirements.
10 That is an inappropriate question.
11 Q Now, could you at least tell me what
12 lot and blocks are involved in this application?
13 A If I refer to the site plan, I may,
14 but that has been testified to by the engineer.
15 Q I only do it one at a time. You are
16 the planner, and I have been doing this a little
17 bit, too, and one usually expects the planner to
18 know what lot and block numbers are the
19 constituent parts of the application.
20 Do you know what lot and block numbers are
21 the property, which is the subject of this
23 A Yes.
24 Q All right. What are they?
25 A They are noted on the site plan.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 I do not recall them from memory.
2 Q You have your site plan here?
3 A There is an example of the site plan
4 in front of me, yes.
5 Q Uh-huh.
6 Will you again look at it and tell me how
7 many separate lots are listed on the plan.
8 You will see there is a method to my
9 madness in a moment. Trust me.
10 A There would appear to be eight
12 Q I am sorry?
13 A There appear to be eight blocks.
14 Q I am not talking about blocks. I am
15 talking about lots. There is a difference.
16 A Yes.
17 A I believe, if I counted correctly,
18 there are 18 separate lots.
19 Q Do you know that the application
20 that was filed only lists 15 lots? Did you know
22 A Perhaps I miscounted.
23 Q Let's do it -- we want to be
24 accurate. We have a little bit of time tonight.
25 Would you do that again. Tell me if it's 18.
Staines - Direct - Segreto