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DECEMBER 16, 1999
PAGES 107 TO 150

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on December 16, 1999.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 4 different web pages.

Jump to 12/16/99 pages 1  to 53
Jump to 12/16/99 pages 54 to 106
Jump to 12/16/99 pages 151 to 170 (end of transcript)

1 We understand you are a planner. We expect
2 you to be able to read the plan and tell us how
3 many lots there are.
4 A I stand corrected. There are 15
5 lots.
6 Q Would it be correct to say that the
7 testimony which you have been giving so far and
8 the planning opinions which you have been
9 expressing deal with the 15 lots that you have
10 identified to be depicted on that plan? Is that
11 right?
12 A Yes. That's correct.
13 Q Does that have an exhibit number on
14 it?
15 Would it be easier if you put that in front
16 of you?
17 A No, actually, it's quite easier over
18 here.
19 Thank you.
20 Q First of all, there seems to be a
21 sticker up in the corner, isn't there?
22 A Yes. Would that be A-27? Am I
23 reading that correctly?
24 MR. DUNN: No.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 THE WITNESS: No. 27. I don't see
2 a designation elsewhere.
3 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Giardino, I know
4 we have got an in-tandem procedure here.
5 Why now let her take care of it, please.
6 THE WITNESS: I do not see an
7 exhibit number.
8 Perhaps there is one on the
9 backside.
10 Q Is there one on the back?
11 A This is --
12 MR. KIENZ: I am going --
13 A This is from my file.
14 Perhaps there is an actual submitted copy
15 with an exhibit number on it.
16 MR. KIENZ: We marked the plans
17 as A-9, I believe.
18 MR. SEGRETO: Is that what it is?
19 MR. KIENZ: I believe so.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Let's make an
21 assumption it's A-9.
22 Q For the purpose of the record, just
23 identify the title of the document, and it has the
24 revision date.
25 A Certainly. This is referred to as
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 the cover sheet.
2 MR. DUNN: Not if it's -- if
3 that's not the one in evidence, why are we
4 doing this?
5 MR. KIENZ: I don't know.
6 THE WITNESS: Is this the one in
7 evidence?
8 MR. DUNN: You are asking the
9 witness to identify something that's in
10 front of her because it's in evidence or
11 because it's not in evidence?
12 MR. SEGRETO: Because that's the
13 one she has been using, Mr. Dunn.
14 I didn't put it in front of her and
15 say, "I want you to use this."
16 She is using this as a point of
17 reference, and if that's not the correct
18 one, I have no problem with counsel giving
19 her the one that's in evidence.
20 MR. KIENZ: I don't have the
21 evidence one.
22 MR. SEGRETO: Where did that one
23 come from?
24 MR. KIENZ: That came out of the
25 application box that you have and the 28
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 other people have.
2 The ones that are already marked
3 into evidence we don't keep. That's what
4 Mr. Segreto is looking for. I don't have
5 it.
6 MR. SEGRETO: No. No. If this is
7 the one that's been marked in evidence --
8 MR. KIENZ: I didn't say it was.
9 I don't have the one that is marked in
10 evidence.
11 MR. SEGRETO: Let's do it my way.
12 Q You identified it to be the title
13 sheet, and what firm prepared it?
14 A I referred to it as a cover sheet.
15 Q Cover sheet. Right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q What's the name of the firm that
18 prepared it?
19 A Paulus, Sokolowski and Sartor.
20 Q What's the last revision date on it?
21 A The cover sheet is dated 7/19/99.
22 The revision date is 8/31/99.
23 Q I am sorry?
24 A The revision date is 8/31/99.
25 Q That's August?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. Now --
3 MR. KIENZ: I believe, based on
4 or notes, that is, in fact, A-9, although
5 that's not the official one that was marked
6 into the board's record, because it was a
7 revision date of August 31st.
8 MR. DUNN: Let's move on.
9 Q Now, does that map indicate the lot
10 and block numbers?
11 A Yes, it does.
12 Q All right. Let us please go through
13 them, and I am going to ask you about some lot and
14 block numbers.
15 You tell me if it's on the map.
16 Block three 36.05, Lot 101?
17 A Correct, and 201.
18 Q Let's do one at a time.
19 Block 36.05, Lot 2.01?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Block 45, Lot 6?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Block 45, Lots 7, 8 and 9?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Block 45.01, Lot 1.01?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A Correct.
2 Q 41.01, Lot 2.01?
3 A Yes.
4 Q 45.01, Lot 3.01?
5 A Yes.
6 And 4.01.
7 Q And 45.01, Lot 4.01?
8 A I am sorry. Repeat that one again.
9 Q Block 45.01, Lot 4.01.
10 A Oh -- I beg your pardon -- correct.
11 Q Next, Block 45.02, Lot 1.01?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Block 64.01, Lot 1.01?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Block 64.01, Lot 2.01?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Block 64.01, Lot 3.01?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Block 64.03, Lot 1.01?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, are those -- this -- have you
22 ever seen this document before?
23 A Mr. Segreto, you refrained from
24 mentioning three other blocks and lots, Block
25 64.02, Lot 1.01, and I believe you missed Block
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 64, Lots 8 and 9.
2 Q And what was the other one, 64 what?
3 A Block 64, Lots 8 and 9.
4 Perhaps I should count them again.
5 Q Block 64, Lot 8, and Block 64, Lot
6 9. Right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What was the other one that I
9 missed?
10 A Block 64.02, Lot 1.01.
11 Q Are those lots the same lots in
12 their entirety that were on the plan when you did
13 your planning review and analysis?
14 A That's a very broad statement, Mr.
15 Segreto.
16 Would you please define the time frame.
17 Q Well, you indicated that you did
18 your analysis for two years.
19 My question is, when you first started
20 doing your work, and you worked fastidiously over
21 two years analyzing the planning aspects of this
22 project, were all of those lots part of the
23 proposed application?
24 A I don't recall.
25 Q I take it you are not aware of the
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 fact that on September 1, 1999 an amended
2 application was submitted. You didn't know that,
3 did you?
4 A Yes, I am aware that an amended
5 application was submitted.
6 There is also a date on the drawing that
7 reflects that.
8 Q Well, what did the amended
9 application do?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q Did it eliminate any lots?
12 A To my recollection, actually, it
13 identified additional lots.
14 There were some engineering elements as
15 well.
16 Q Well, did they add more lots?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Now, since September, have you done
19 any further analysis beyond the analysis that you
20 had done in the prior couple of years?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did any of them have to do with
23 zoning issues?
24 A Again, Mr. Segreto, it's extremely
25 broad. Perhaps you can focus your question.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q Well, there is a difference.
2 MR. DUNN: Let the witness
3 answer, please, unless you want to withdraw
4 the question.
5 MR. SEGRETO: She said it's
6 difficult to answer the question.
7 Q I thought you said --
8 A It's extremely broad, yes.
9 Q You as a planner deal sometimes with
10 plan issues and sometimes you deal with zoning
11 issues. Isn't that so?
12 A Yes.
13 Q For example, the site plan doesn't
14 deal with zoning. It deals with planning, doesn't
15 it? Aren't they separate disciplines?
16 A I don't see it that way.
17 Q Well, don't you, when you are
18 dealing with a site plan issue, use as the bench
19 mark the site plan ordinance and the land use
20 ordinance that deals with zoning?
21 A Yes, those are utilized.
22 Q And when you are dealing with a
23 zoning issue, you deal with the zoning components
24 of the Municipal Land Use Act and the local zoning
25 ordinance. Isn't that so?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A Yes, we do.
2 Q And they deal with different
3 subjects, don't they?
4 A Some of them are interrelated and
5 cross-referenced, yes.
6 Q Now, with regard to any zoning
7 workups that you might have done subsequent to the
8 filing of the mandatory application on September
9 1st, can you tell me what zoning analysis you have
10 done since September 1, 1999?
11 And I am not talking about giving testimony
12 here.
13 A Following the application in
14 September, early September.
15 Q Was that the original application or
16 was that the amended?
17 A The amended application, there were
18 additional design elements that were evaluated to
19 confirm heights of buildings as they related to
20 view corridors, as well as the calculations for
21 the provisions of open space.
22 Q Forgive me, but my question was,
23 tell me about any new analysis that you did, and I
24 am not talking about the suggestive "we" of the
25 firm. You personally, what additional analysis,
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 as a planner, did you do concerning this
2 application since September 1st of 1999?
3 A Mr. Segreto, I was attempting to
4 answer your question.
5 Q I am sorry for interrupting you.
6 Go right ahead.
7 A I was involved in reexamining, along
8 with our staff and consultants, the application of
9 the height, view corridors and open space
10 requirements of the zoning aspect of the
11 ordinance.
12 Q Do you have any documents before you
13 which have a date that come after September 1,
14 1999?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What do you have?
17 By the way, are the documents in
18 chronological order?
19 A No.
20 MR. DUNN: I am sorry. I didn't
21 hear that.
22 MR. SEGRETO: Are your documents in
23 chronological order in the file, and the
24 response was "no."
25 THE WITNESS: No, they are not.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 I have revised open space
2 calculations with a date of 12/5/99, which
3 have been submitted to the board.
4 Q Did you prepare that?
5 A No.
6 Q Won't you please refer my attention
7 to things that you did.
8 A Mr. Segreto, I was involved in the
9 preparation. I don't physically type all the
10 documents. I hire people who type the documents.
11 Q Forgive me. I am not demeaning you
12 in suggesting you type the document. I don't type
13 in my office either.
14 A I do type some of the documents.
15 MR. DUNN: Is there a question
16 here?
17 Q Yes. The question was, did you
18 prepare this document, and I don't mean type it.
19 A There is another analysis referred
20 to as Weehawken Plan Analysis in which we have
21 identified the sizes, the square foot of the
22 various buildings.
23 It is dated 10/13/99.
24 Another open space --
25 Q As a courtesy to me, the documents
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 which you are now identifying to be after February
2 1st, if you keep them one --
3 A Another variation of the open space
4 document is 11/29, which was updated.
5 A Total Project Overview, this was one of
6 the charts to which I referred in prior testimony,
7 dated 12/05/99.
8 The Building Height Chart, dated 12/1/99,
9 as amended.
10 I believe this was also submitted as a
11 chart in the package that was provided at the last
12 testimony, dated -- excuse me -- 11/26/99. The
13 gross density is the calculations of the overall
14 site.
15 An Updated Floor Area Analysis dated
16 10/13/99.
17 Further floor Area Calculation Analysis,
18 11/26/99.
19 And a Project Program and Yield Summary
20 dated 12/2/99. The print is very small.
21 And the last item was the parking chart to
22 which I referred to earlier, which was dated
23 12/9/99, but completed today, December 16th.
24 Q Now, have you seen Mr. Maris's
25 August traffic report?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A I beg your pardon?
2 Q Who is the traffic engineer for the
3 applicant?
4 MR. KIENZ: Objection; beyond the
5 scope of the direct.
6 MR. DUNN: She can answer.
7 MR. SEGRETO: Most respectfully --
8 MR. DUNN: She can answer.
9 A Which question are you asking?
10 Q The question is, who was the traffic
11 engineer for the applicant?
12 A Edwards and Kelsey.
13 Q Who is the one who wrote it in that
14 firm?
15 A The representative is Scott Parker.
16 Q Parker?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did they submit the traffic report
19 dated 8/23/99?
20 A I am not certain of the date.
21 Q But that's the letter of
22 transmittal.
23 August 19, 1999 is the date of it.
24 MR. DUNN: Is that a question?
25 Q Now, have you reviewed this report?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A I reviewed excerpts of the report.
2 Q Do you have a copy of the excerpts
3 that you reviewed?
4 A No, I do not.
5 Q Where are they?
6 A They were in the file that you
7 reviewed earlier today. The majority of my files
8 were in a vehicle that you had access to this
9 morning.
10 Q Did you, in expressing your planning
11 opinions, rely upon this traffic report or any
12 part of it?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What part of it did you rely upon?
15 A It would be difficult for me to
16 pinpoint a paragraph.
17 The traffic consultant in our firm worked
18 in concert in generating some concept using the
19 site plan. His opinions are reflected in the
20 report.
21 Our opinions are reflected in the site
22 plan.
23 Q Is it your testimony that there are
24 any documents in your file which reflect the
25 interaction between you and the traffic engineer,
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Edwards and Kelsey?
2 A In our profession --
3 Q Please don't answer it generically.
4 A Yes, there are.
5 Q Is it your testimony that there are
6 any documents in your file which reflect
7 interaction between you and Edwards and Kelsey
8 concerning the traffic implications?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Do you have any of them here?
11 A I am not certain what's in the boxes
12 that you requested, Mr. Segreto, but I doubt it.
13 Q Are they on your desk?
14 A No.
15 Q Now, for a planner to express a
16 general conclusion that the applicant meets the
17 criteria of the ordinance, in this instance,
18 wouldn't it be true that you would have to know
19 about the traffic generation in as-built
20 conditions and what effect it would have on the
21 resultant level of service? Wouldn't you have to
22 know that before you could say whether or not this
23 plan is compliant with the ordinance that -- the
24 totality of the ordinance?
25 A Yes.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q Can you tell me whether or not the
2 construction of this project will result in the
3 reduction of any level of service as a result of
4 the traffic which this project will generate?
5 A That is not my area of expertise.
6 It will be testified to by the traffic
7 engineer.
8 Q Would it be correct to say that to
9 the extent that you expressed a general opinion as
10 a planner, that this is compliant -- this
11 application is compliant with the requirements of
12 the ordinance, you did not include traffic
13 implication compliance? Isn't that so?
14 A No, it's not so.
15 Q Well, if you are testifying that the
16 traffic, which will be generated will be compliant
17 with the requirements of the ordinance of this
18 municipality, please tell me whether or not any
19 existing level of service will be diminished as a
20 result of the as-built generation of traffic from
21 this project.
22 A I don't believe I testified to any
23 respect of the specific traffic generation or any
24 impact on any specific intersections.
25 Q Well, if you don't know the answer
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 to my question, you can simply say, "I don't
2 know."
3 Do you know if there is projected a
4 degradation of an existing level of service as a
5 result of the traffic to be generated by this
6 project?
7 Either you know or you don't know.
8 A I don't know.
9 Q All right. And, therefore, to the
10 extent that you have expressed generically a
11 conclusion of compliance with the ordinance, that
12 doesn't apply to the traffic implications. Isn't
13 that true?
14 A It is true as it relates to the
15 overall traffic impact.
16 Q Well, how do you know what the
17 overall traffic impact is?
18 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Segreto, you are
19 sitting right next to the witness. It's
20 really not necessary to raise your voice.
21 Q If I am raising my voice, tell me
22 that I am.
23 A Mr. Segreto, also the traffic that
24 relates to the internal planning of the planned
25 development.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q Well, what expertise do you have in
2 the subject matter of traffic configuration with
3 conflicting traffic movements? What expertise do
4 you have in that field?
5 A No profession --
6 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
7 This is beyond the scope of the
8 direct. She didn't testify to traffic.
9 We have other traffic people that's
10 been represented. We just spent 15 minutes
11 going round and round. It's beyond the
12 scope of the direct.
13 MR. SEGRETO: Most --
14 MR. DUNN: If the witness can
15 answer the question, she can answer it.
16 The objection is overruled.
17 MR. GOULD: Okay.
18 MR. SEGRETO: I was about to say --
19 MR. TURNER: Another one went off.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Don't tell me three
21 strikes I am out.
22 MR. GOULD: Okay. Now, please
23 continue.
24 MR. SEGRETO: All set?
25 This witness has expressed on her
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 direct testimony a net opinion, a
2 conclusatory opinion that she believes that
3 this application is compliant.
4 Counsel says it was not raised on
5 direct.
6 Obviously, when the expert expresses
7 a conclusion as encompassing as that, I
8 have a right to explore the predicates to
9 see whether or not, in fact, she can
10 support that conclusion based upon her
11 knowledge.
12 That's what I am doing, and I most
13 respectfully think I should be permitted to
14 continue to do what I am doing.
15 MR. DUNN: The record would
16 reflect that the witness expressed much
17 more than a single net opinion on the
18 conclusions.
19 She went through the provisions of
20 the ordinance, and I noted it as she went
21 through the provisions of the ordinance
22 that she didn't cover all the provisions,
23 because some of them were not within the
24 area of her expertise, so to the extent
25 that you say she expressed a net opinion, I
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 think she did far more than that, but we
2 will allow you to continue your
3 cross-examination.
4 Q Can you tell me what the weekday PM
5 existing traffic generation is from this entire
6 site?
7 A No.
8 Q Can you tell me what the weekday PM
9 peak-hour traffic generation would be if this
10 application were approved and the project were
11 built?
12 A No.
13 Q You do not know, therefore, whether
14 or not the traffic generation would exaserbate the
15 existing conditions, do you?
16 A No.
17 Q Now, there has also been an
18 environmental impact report, which also is very
19 generous in its conclusions, that everything is
20 okay from an environmental point of view.
21 You have seen that report?
22 A Yes, I have.
23 Q Do you know anything, within your
24 expertise, about the extant of contaminants, their
25 character, their concentration and the location?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 MR. KIENZ: Objection; beyond the
2 scope of the direct.
3 She is a planner.
4 MR. SEGRETO: Let me do it
5 differently.
6 MR. DUNN: If the witness can
7 answer the question --
8 MR. SEGRETO: Let me do it
9 differently.
10 MR. DUNN: Take each element and
11 ask, please.
12 MR. SEGRETO: That's not where I am
13 going, Mr. Dunn. Come on. Follow me a
14 little bit.
15 MR. DUNN: Okay. I will follow
16 you.
17 Q You don't really know as a planner
18 what the environmental impacts would be of a
19 construction of this facility, do you?
20 A Again, it's a very broad question.
21 I am certain -- I am not certain that can
22 be answered with a "yes" or "no," Mr. Segreto.
23 Q Do you want me to narrow the breadth
24 of it? I don't follow.
25 MR. DUNN: It's an improper
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 question.
2 Q Do you understand the question?
3 A It's an improper question, if I
4 might suggest.
5 Q You are not here to decide whether
6 it's proper or improper.
7 My question posed now is this -- if you
8 can't answer the question say, "I can't answer the
9 question the way you phrased it."
10 If you can answer it, let me have your
11 answer.
12 A I can't answer the question the way
13 you phrased it.
14 Q All right. Now, with regard to
15 civil engineering -- you are not an engineer, are
16 you, a licensed engineer?
17 A No, I am not.
18 Q And there are many, many engineering
19 issues --
20 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
21 Q -- in this case. Isn't that so?
22 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
23 MR. DUNN: If the witness can
24 answer the question, the witness can answer
25 the question.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A Yes.
2 Q And you are not competent as a
3 planner to opine as to whether or not the civil
4 engineering proposals in this plan represent sound
5 engineering that is conformable to the engineering
6 requirements of the ordinance?
7 A That is not my area of expertise.
8 Correct.
9 Q Now, would I be correct in saying,
10 to the extent that you had opined about
11 compliance, it is narrowly limited to your field
12 of expertise, planning and zoning? Isn't that
13 right?
14 A Those are facets. That's correct.
15 Q By the way, I want you to assume
16 that all of the lots and blocks are not owned by
17 the same company.
18 Do you know the name of any company that
19 owns any of these lots?
20 A Yes, I believe the company's name is
21 Port Imperial South, LLC.
22 Q Did you ever hear of is Romulus?
23 A Yes, I have.
24 Q Now, Romulus Development
25 Corporation?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. How are they related to this?
3 A It's an ownership that's been
4 represented by the applicant.
5 Q Are you familiar with the printed
6 form of application for development in this
7 municipality?
8 A No.
9 Q All right. Question No. 9 in the
10 form of the application is: "Have there been any
11 previous applications, requests or appeals to this
12 or other township boards to the construction
13 official involving the same property?"
14 The answer is "Yes."
15 Can you tell me what previous applications
16 were made to any other township boards concerning
17 this property?
18 MR. DUNN: Did the witness sign
19 the application?
20 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry?
21 MR. DUNN: Did the witness sign
22 the application that you are referring to?
23 MR. SEGRETO: Of course she didn't
24 sign the application.
25 What's the relevance of that?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: I am having trouble
2 understanding the relevance of this line of
3 questioning with this witness.
4 MR. SEGRETO: Just abide where we
5 are going.
6 Q Now, do you know if this property or
7 any part of it ever was before the board of
8 adjustment in this municipality?
9 A No.
10 Q Do you know of any use variances
11 that were ever granted by the board of adjustment
12 of this municipality for this property?
13 A No.
14 Q Are you aware that, under the Land
15 Use Act, if a board of adjustment has at any time
16 granted a use variance on a piece of property, all
17 subsequent applications must be made to the board
18 of adjustment? Are you familiar with that?
19 MR. KIENZ: I object.
20 MR. SEGRETO: To what?
21 MR. DUNN: What's the basis?
22 MR. KIENZ: Relevancy for this
23 application. He is leading the witness.
24 MR. DUNN: Well, leading the
25 witness he is allowed to do, but I think
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 it's objectionable because it's asking the
2 witness for a legal conclusion. It's
3 beyond the scope of her expertise;
4 therefore, I am going to sustain the
5 objection.
6 MR. SEGRETO: Well, would that mean
7 that the planner can't express any opinions
8 about affirmative and negative criteria?
9 They do it all the time.
10 MR. DUNN: That's not before
11 this board.
12 The objection is, therefore,
13 sustained as to relevancy as well.
14 MR. SEGRETO: I would like to have
15 marked for identification -- what is my
16 number now?
17 MR. DUNN: Your number would be
18 O-4.
19 (Resolution dated July 17, 1996 is
20 marked as Exhibit O-4.)
21 MR. SEGRETO: This is O-4.
22 Let me mark it now, and then we will
23 have the court reporter do it when I am
24 finished with a group of them.
25 MR. DUNN: Would you identify
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 what they are.
2 MR. SEGRETO: Yes, O-4, Zoning
3 Board of Adjustment, Township of Weehawken
4 resolution dated July 17, 1996.
5 Q I ask you to look at it.
6 Were you aware that the board of adjustment
7 had granted relief on this property in 1996?
8 A I am not familiar with this document
9 that you are referring to.
10 MR. SEGRETO: I would like to have
11 marked for identification as O-5, a
12 resolution of the Board of Adjustment of
13 the Township of Weehawken, dated --
14 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object
15 to this line for relevancy, and it's also
16 beyond the scope of the direct.
17 If Mr. Segreto wants to put a case
18 in, he will have a chance at the end of the
19 proceedings.
20 We have an application before the
21 board that is pending before the board now.
22 We think we are appropriately before the
23 board.
24 (Resolution dated April 6, 1994 is
25 marked as Exhibit O-5.)
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: He is marking
2 exhibits. He can mark the exhibits for
3 identification and ask the witness if she
4 has seen them.
5 MR. SEGRETO: This one is dated
6 April 6, 1994. That was O-5.
7 Q I ask you to look at this one.
8 Did you know that such a variance had been
9 granted as indicated in that application?
10 A No, I am not familiar with that
11 document either.
12 MR. SEGRETO: The next one is O-6,
13 and this is June 15, 1994.
14 (Resolution dated June 15, 1994 is
15 marked as O-6.)
16 Q Did you think that this variance had
17 been granted?
18 A No, I am not familiar with that
19 document either.
20 MR. SEGRETO: I now mark as O-7
21 still another variance granted by the board
22 of adjustment.
23 This one on May 5th -- no -- I am
24 sorry -- this one -- here, I have it now --
25 August 3, 1994.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 (Variance dated August 3, 1994 is
2 marked as Exhibit O-7.)
3 Q Did you know this variance had been
4 granted?
5 A No, I am not familiar with this
6 document either.
7 MR. SEGRETO: Next is O-8, which is
8 "Resolution of the Board of Adjustment"
9 dated June 15, 1994.
10 (Resolution dated June 15, 1994 is
11 marked as Exhibit O-8.)
12 Q Did you know about that one?
13 A No, I am not familiar with this one.
14 MR. SEGRETO: The next is O-9.
15 It's another variance granted by the board
16 dated August 3, 1994.
17 (Variance dated August 3, 1994 is
18 marked as Exhibit O-9.)
19 Q Did you know about that one?
20 A No, I am not familiar with this one.
21 MR. SEGRETO: The next is O-10,
22 another approval by the board of
23 adjustment, relating to this property,
24 dated July 15, 1992.
25 (Approval dated July 15, 1992 is
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1 marked as Exhibit O-10.)
2 Q Are you familiar with that one?
3 A Did you say "'92"?
4 Q '92.
5 A No, I am not familiar with that
6 document.
7 Q You must be patient with me, going
8 back to 1986.
9 MR. SEGRETO: O-10.
10 MR. DUNN: O-11.
11 MR. SEGRETO: O-10 -- I am sorry --
12 O-11, February 20, 1991.
13 (Resolution dated February 20, 1991
14 is marked as Exhibit O-11.)
15 Q Did you know about that one?
16 A No.
17 MR. SEGRETO: Next is O-12,
18 "Resolution of the Board of Adjustment,"
19 dated October 2, 1991.
20 (Resolution dated October 2, 1991 is
21 marked as Exhibit O-12.)
22 Q Did you know about that one?
23 A No, I am not familiar with that
24 document.
25 MR. SEGRETO: O-13, "Resolution of
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1 the Board of Adjustment," September 18,
2 1991
3 (Resolution dated September 18, 1991
4 is marked as Exhibit O-13.)
5 Q Are you familiar with that one?
6 A No, I am not familiar with that
7 document either.
8 MR. DUNN: The record should
9 note we have now consumed about ten minutes
10 of the board's precious time with this
11 "exercise."
12 (Resolution dated January 9, 1991 is
13 marked as Exhibit O-14.)
14 MR. SEGRETO: This is not an
15 exercise.
16 It's a presentation of an attorney
17 who seems to know what he is doing of his
18 case, and I don't need sarcasm from the
19 board attorney.
20 We have marked as O-14, the
21 resolution dated January 9, 1991, by the
22 way, of the Board of Adjustment.
23 THE WITNESS: No, I am not familiar
24 with that document either.
25 MR. SEGRETO: Let me just mark the
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1 rest of them, and then I will ask you one
2 question.
3 (Resolution dated 1990 is marked as
4 Exhibit O-15.)
5 (Resolution dated 1990 is marked as
6 Exhibit O-16.)
7 (Resolution dated 1989 is marked as
8 Exhibit O-17.)
9 (Resolution dated 1989 is marked as
10 Exhibit O-18.)
11 (Resolution dated 1987 is marked as
12 Exhibit O-19.)
13 (Resolution dated 1987 is marked as
14 Exhibit O-20.)
15 (Resolution dated 1986 is marked as
16 Exhibit O-21.)
17 Q I am going to show you O-15, is a
18 1990 resolution by the Board of Adjustment; O-16,
19 which is a 1990 resolution by the Board of
20 Adjustment; O-17, 1989 Resolution of the Board of
21 Adjustment; O-18, 1989 Resolution, Board of
22 Adjustment; O-19, 1987 Resolution of the Board of
23 Adjustment; O-20, 1987 Resolution of the Board of
24 Adjustment; and O-21, 1986 Resolution of the Board
25 of Adjustment, do you know about any of them?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 A No, Mr. Segreto, I am not familiar
2 with any of those documents.
3 Q I want you to look at Page O-21, and
4 I direct your attention in particular to the third
5 paragraph, which says that ARCOR Properties made
6 an application for a use variance and site plan
7 approval for a ferry terminal and parking
8 facilities adjacent thereto for 480 vehicles.
9 Do you see that in the third paragraph?
10 A Yes, I can see that paragraph.
11 Q By the way, Tom brought to my
12 attention, I missed one, another 1987.
13 What number is this one?
14 MR. SEGRETO: O-23.
15 (Document is marked as Exhibit
16 O-23.)
17 Q On O-23, do you know about that one?
18 A No, I am not familiar with that one.
19 Q Now, I want you to assume that the
20 board of adjustment granted the use variance for
21 the ferry terminal at its present location.
22 Do I understand correctly that part of this
23 application seeks to construct a new ferry
24 terminal on the property at a different location
25 than the location approved by this use variance?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Is that what's happening here?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And I understand this ferry terminal
4 is going to be capable of handling more traffic
5 and people than the existing one. Is that right?
6 A It's intended to serve more patrons.
7 Correct.
8 Q What is your understanding about the
9 procedure that must be followed from a planning
10 point of view, if someone has a use variance and
11 they want to expand it and change its location,
12 what kind of a procedure is implicated as far as
13 you understand it?
14 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
15 It calls for a legal opinion.
16 MR. SEGRETO: It calls for a
17 planning opinion.
18 MR. DUNN: I am not sure your
19 question is complete.
20 The question -- is your question --
21 is your question what's required under a
22 planned development or what's required
23 under the underlying zoning?
24 MR. SEGRETO: Well, I have got the
25 same problem. I don't understand your
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1 question, Mr. Dunn.
2 MR. DUNN: Okay.
3 MR. SEGRETO: Sometimes there are
4 distinctions without a difference, but, in
5 any event, the dust will settle on that one
6 somewhere else?
7 MR. DUNN: I am sure it will.
8 Q Right now the question before the
9 board -- before the witness, rather, if somebody
10 has been granted a use variance and they want to
11 expand it, how does one do that?
12 MR. KIENZ: That's a
13 hypothetical, and it has nothing to do with
14 this application.
15 MR. DUNN: Sustained.
16 MR. SEGRETO: You sustained that
17 objection?
18 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, if you
19 were in court you would not be permitted to
20 argue with the judge.
21 I have sustained the objection.
22 MR. GOULD: That would be true.
23 MR. SEGRETO: If I would be before
24 the court, I would be before a judge. I
25 wouldn't get the kind of rulings.
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1 I am doing an efficacious and
2 important cross-examination on an important
3 issue. I don't want to get personal with
4 this. I have a right to create a record
5 through the witness who is here.
6 MR. DUNN: What's your next
7 question?
8 MR. SEGRETO: You are not going to
9 let me pursue this area with her?
10 MR. DUNN: What's your next
11 question?
12 Q Are you familiar with the provisions
13 of NJSA 40:55D-70D?
14 A Mr. Segreto, my memory isn't that
15 good. Perhaps you can refer to the paragraph.
16 Q Pardon?
17 A Perhaps you can refer to the
18 paragraph.
19 Q Yes, that's the one that says that
20 if the person wishes to expand a nonconforming
21 use, they must apply to the board of adjustment
22 for a use variance to expand a nonconforming use.
23 Now do you remember what section that is?
24 A I am not -- I am not certain I am in
25 a position to answer that question.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q You are a professional planner of
2 the State of New Jersey, are you not?
3 A Yes, I am.
4 Q All right. Now, you have testified
5 here in that capacity today?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right. Do you know that there
8 is a provision in the Land Use Act that deals with
9 the subject of expansion of nonconforming uses?
10 A Yes, I am aware there are provisions
11 for that.
12 Q Doesn't Section 70D --
13 A You believe it's Section 70D. I
14 don't recall the section in the code.
15 Q Well, you know there is a Section C
16 and a D.
17 C deals with bulk variances, C-1 and C-2.
18 You know that, don't you?
19 A Mr. Segreto, I don't recall the law
20 as distinctly as you do by paragraph.
21 Q Have you ever testified before any
22 board concerning a variance?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And are you aware of the fact that
25 there is a criteria of affirmative and negative
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1 criteria?
2 A Yes, there are.
3 Q And where is that criteria of
4 affirmative and negative criteria contained in the
5 Land Use Act for bulk variances?
6 A I don't know the specific paragraph.
7 I refer to my attorney.
8 Q Now, if the use variance has been
9 granted to locate a nonconforming building --
10 proposed nonconforming building upon a particular
11 part of the property, is it your understanding as
12 a planner that the owner of the property can move
13 it to any other part of the property that he
14 wants?
15 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
16 That's not -- objection. That's not
17 what the application is about. That's not
18 what the testimony is about, and he is
19 beyond the scope of the direct.
20 MR. SEGRETO: I will withdraw the
21 last question.
22 Q What lot is the ferry terminal on
23 now?
24 A I don't know specifically. I would
25 have to refer to the site plan.
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 Q What lot will the ferry -- the new
2 ferry terminal be located?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q What is the capacity of the existing
5 ferry terminal?
6 A Are you referring to the ridership?
7 Q Pardon? Yes.
8 A I believe it's somewhere around four
9 to 5,000 riders a day.
10 Q What is the proposed passenger
11 capacity of the new one?
12 A Approximately 9,000 riders more or
13 less per day.
14 Q Going to double the capacity.
15 Right?
16 A Perhaps, yes.
17 Q Going to expand it. Correct?
18 A Absolutely.
19 Q Now, you say you don't know where it
20 is.
21 How come you were able to talk so
22 eloquently about the view corridor on the proposed
23 location of a ferry terminal if you don't even
24 know what lot it's on?
25 A I have not memorized the location of
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 every lot and block on the site plan. I do not
2 refer to them that way.
3 Q Well, there are a lot of different
4 uses here, aren't there?
5 A Yes, there are.
6 Q Do you know whether or not the
7 application that was submitted indicates what lot
8 the ferry terminal is on?
9 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
10 The application speaks for itself.
11 MR. SEGRETO: The application
12 doesn't speak for itself. It's a --
13 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, I can
14 hear you very well without you raising your
15 voice.
16 I am going to overrule the
17 objection.
18 Q Do you know whether or not the
19 application indicates where the ferry terminal is
20 now?
21 A I don't recall.
22 Q Are you even aware of the fact that
23 there is an Exhibit B, a part of the -- as part of
24 the application, which in four pages identifies
25 every lot and block, indicates the existing
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1 structures, the existing use, the zone district?
2 Were you aware that's in the application?
3 A I didn't recall that. I did not
4 prepare that document.
5 Q By the way, do you know if anybody
6 ever got a use variance for the banana building?
7 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
8 A No, I do not know.
9 Q Is it proposed in this application
10 to change the uses in the banana building?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What were the uses in the -- what
13 are the uses in the banana building now?
14 A There are existing office uses, and
15 the balance of the building was an industrial use.
16 Q What is proposed to do with it under
17 this application?
18 A The office space will be expanded
19 and a health club facility will be introduced.
20 Q Different uses. Right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is there any special kind of relief
23 that one must get if they have the benefit of a
24 use variance for a particular use and they want to
25 change the use?
Staines - Direct - Segreto
1 MR. KIENZ: Objection;
2 hypothetical.
3 It's not the subject of the
4 application before the board. He is trying
5 it again.
6 MR. DUNN: Overruled.
7 A I am sorry. Will you repeat the
8 question.
9 Q Is there some procedure that one
10 must follow if one has a piece of property on
11 which they have received a use variance for a
12 particular use and they wish to change the uses on
13 that property?
14 A Yes, but I don't understand how that
15 applies to this.
16 Q I didn't ask you that.
17 What is that process known -- what is the
18 procedure?
19 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
20 He is not letting her answer the
21 question.
22 Let her answer the question.
23 MR. SEGRETO: Maybe my hearing is
24 not good.
25 MR. DUNN: You did interrupt the
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1 witness, Mr. Segreto, but why don't you
2 just rephrase your question.
3 Q Could you indicate to me that the
4 existing use is office and manufacturing?
5 A No, I did not.
6 I said it was industrial.
7 Q I am sorry. An industrial.
8 That's the present utilization of it?
9 A I believe the industrial use has
10 been vacated.
11 Q So it's now what, office?
12 A Office and --
13 Q Mr. Imperatore has his company
14 office there, doesn't he?
15 A I believe he does.
16 Q Now, what is proposed under this
17 application to be done with the banana building?
18 A The office use had been expanded, a
19 banquet facility and a health club. Two separate
20 uses will be introduced.
21 Q Those are new uses different than
22 the existing use?
23 A They are new uses consistent with
24 the planned development.
25 Q I didn't ask you that.
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