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WEEHAWKEN PLANNING BOARD HEARING
DECEMBER 2, 1999
FULL TRANSCRIPT
PAGES 51 TO 100

Witness Geoffrey Robert Lanza
Utilities & Engineering Expert
Cross Examination by the Public & James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on December 2nd, 1999.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 4 different web pages.

Jump to 12/02/99 pages 1 to 50
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Jump to 12/02/99 pages 151 to 177 (end of transcript)

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51
1 who wrote the utility components of the
2 Environmental Impact Statement of August 1999,
3 relied upon.
4 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Dunn, I am going
5 to state my continuing objection on the
6 record.
7 There is an EIS on file prepared by
8 EcolSciences. That's the one that was
9 submitted. That's the one that's part of
10 this application.
11 MR. SEGRETO: Sure, and if the same
12 applicant submits documents --
13 MR. DUNN: You have a right to
14 cross-examine on it, Mr. Segreto.
15 MR. SEGRETO: Can I most
16 respectfully --
17 MR. DUNN: The question is
18 permitted.
19 MR. SEGRETO: I know I sometimes
20 wear my emotions too visibly.
21 MR. DUNN: But your time is
22 running.
23 MR. SEGRETO: But what has happened
24 here is that the attorney for the applicant
25 is now trying to leverage the time
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
52
1 constraint into an enormous disadvantage to
2 me.
3 Now, you will recall that in his
4 direct examination of his witnesses I never
5 interrupted to object. I let him ask his
6 questions and then do my thing.
7 Every question I ask he has got six
8 objections to, and the time goes on and on
9 and on.
10 MR. DUNN: I think that's --
11 MR. SEGRETO: We have to either
12 decide to abandon the two-for-one rule or
13 we have got to induce the attorney to stop
14 using my time with frivolous -- I will
15 withdraw the word "frivolous" -- with
16 insistent objections. It simply is not
17 fair.
18 MR. DUNN: Your point is made.
19 Let's move on.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Well, that's a little
21 cynical. If the point is well made, then
22 it has merit. We --
23 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, I am
24 starting to lose my patience.
25 Your point was made.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
53
1 MR. SEGRETO: You must have
2 patience. That's one of the things that
3 the board attorney is supposed to have.
4 MR. GOULD: If there is cause at
5 the end of your cross-examination for us to
6 continue, then we will continue.
7 Continue with your cross-examination
8 now.
9 Q Now, can you get those documents
10 out?
11 A Regarding?
12 Q The documents concerning utilities
13 that your planner relied upon in writing the
14 utility components of your Environmental Impact
15 Statement.
16 MR. SEGRETO: Now, Mr. Chairman, I
17 am going to request that the board issue a
18 subpoena to Elizabeth McLoughlin requiring
19 her appearance so that I can examine her
20 concerning the Environmental Impact
21 Statement utility components, which she
22 prepared.
23 Counsel has indicated he doesn't
24 intend to have anybody come in and testify
25 to the Environmental Impact Statement. I,
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
54
1 therefore, want to call her myself under
2 subpoena.
3 MR. DUNN: I will take your
4 request under advisement.
5 MR. SEGRETO: Should I submit it in
6 writing with a form or would you let me
7 know whether or not the chairman will sign
8 it? There is no point in my typing it up
9 if the chairman is not going to sign it.
10 What shall I do?
11 MR. DUNN: I will let you know.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Do it as quickly as
13 possible because we don't want any delay.
14 Q Now, will you show me where, for
15 example, you have the September 1, 1991
16 calculation --
17 MR. DUNN: 1991?
18 Q -- I am sorry -- 1999 sanitary
19 sewage improvements, which is one month after the
20 Environmental Impact Statement.
21 Are you telling me that when she prepared
22 and issued in August 1999 the Environmental Impact
23 Statement, she relied on a document that didn't
24 exist and wasn't created until September 1st? Is
25 that what you are telling me?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
55
1 A No. No.
2 Q Why did you give me this one as one
3 of the documents that she relied upon in doing the
4 August '99 Environmental Impact Statement?
5 A I didn't sort my file out for you in
6 order. I did not expect you to do this.
7 I expected you to come to my office
8 sometime before tonight and review it in a
9 reasonable order.
10 Q Is it your testimony that, for
11 example, the documents in the file "10B PW
12 1999-004 Water," that the analysis of this datum
13 was done by the professional planner in your
14 office?
15 A Partly, yes.
16 Q Pardon?
17 A Partly, yes, we feed her the
18 information as she writes the parts of the
19 environmental statement.
20 Q For example, there is a handwritten
21 document, Sokolowski, Paulus & Sartor, dated
22 10/9/98, and it says, "DES by WSC."
23 What does the "DES" mean?
24 A Could you show me the DES?
25 Q In the right-hand corner, is that a
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
56
1 DES?
2 A No, "design." Yes, that's an
3 abbreviation for "design."
4 It's a calculation sheet, and it has a
5 place for the sheet number, the date and the
6 initials of the person who designed it, whatever
7 he was designing.
8 Q Is she an engineer?
9 A Yes, she is.
10 Q Uh-huh.
11 And then what does she do? She interpreted
12 this design document?
13 A It's actually an evolving process
14 when preparing the EIS. We work together through
15 the design process.
16 Q As a matter of fact, Ms. McLoughlin
17 wasn't even at the meeting at which this document
18 was generated, and the people at the meeting were
19 Bill Chapin, yourself, Phil Frederico, Ed Lynch,
20 and Hugo Triveri. Is that so?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q So she wasn't even there?
23 A That's correct.
24 Q And yet you say she used this
25 document. Is that right?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
57
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you have a discipline in your
3 office -- I assume you have -- for example,
4 something professional engineer?
5 A That's right.
6 Q You have probably some other people
7 with other professional credentials, too. Is that
8 right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you make a habit of giving an
11 engineering function to a planner to do?
12 A No, not allowed to do that. The
13 preparation of an EIS could be a planner's
14 function, could be an environmental scientist's
15 function, could be an engineer's function.
16 Q Well, the planner's function would
17 be to deal with the planning issues. Right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And yet you had her dealing not with
20 the planning issues, but with the engineering
21 utility issues?
22 A Just describing them.
23 Q Just describing them?
24 A Not signing the utilities, just
25 describing them for the purposes of the EIS.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
58
1 Q Did she also do the analysis of the
2 stormwater management report dated July 19, 1999?
3 A She reviewed that, yes.
4 Q Pardon?
5 A She reviewed that.
6 I wouldn't say she analyzed it.
7 Q To the extent -- to the extent that
8 any conclusions are contained in the Environmental
9 Assessment Report dealing with the sufficiency of
10 the stormwater plant, they were prepared by her?
11 A Can you say that one more time?
12 Q To the extent that there are any
13 conclusions expressed in the Environmental
14 Assessment Report of August 19, 1999 --
15 A Nine.
16 Q -- dealing with the sufficiency of
17 the stormwater plan, she is the one who wrote that
18 section. Right?
19 A At first, and I reviewed it and
20 approved it.
21 Q And is she the one who concluded
22 that the stormwater management plan is in
23 accordance with the requirement of the ordinance?
24 A I don't recall if she wrote that
25 section or if I wrote that section, that sentence.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
59
1 Q Did you?
2 A I don't recall.
3 Q By the way, is there anything in the
4 storm -- in the site plan ordinance that deals
5 with the stormwater management criteria?
6 A No.
7 Q So in this municipality there is no
8 criteria as to whether you must design for a
9 10-year storm or 25-year storm or 50-year storm or
10 100-year storm. Is that your understanding?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q You can do it for a one-year storm.
13 Right?
14 A That wouldn't be prudent.
15 Q That's right. But as far as you
16 understand it, under the site plan ordinance of
17 this municipality, that's the standard?
18 A No, the standard is you don't cause
19 flooding.
20 Q Is that what the ordinance says?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So that we understand this, you have
23 reviewed the site plan ordinance of this
24 municipality?
25 A I have.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
60
1 Q And it is your understanding that
2 the only compliance standard dealing with
3 stormwater is don't cause any flooding?
4 A Well, I really shortened it. It's a
5 sentence or two.
6 I can find it and read it to you word for
7 word, if you would like.
8 Q Well, if it says "can't cause any
9 flooding," that means that you can't have even a
10 100-year interval flood. Right?
11 A Let me check the language. I
12 simplified what I said.
13 Q I don't want you to simplify it.
14 If you have to check something, it's going
15 to take it on my time.
16 Don't you indicate in your Stormwater
17 Management Plan -- don't you indicate in the
18 Stormwater Management Plan, issued by your office,
19 that it's been designed to accommodate a 25-year
20 storm?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q That means that it has not been
23 designed to accommodate any storm beyond a 25-year
24 interval storm, right, for example, a 50-year
25 storm?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
61
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And a 100-year storm?
3 A That's also correct.
4 Q And yet you have said that the
5 standard is that you can't have any flooding?
6 A That's what I said.
7 Let me get the exact language for you.
8 Q We will get to that.
9 A Okay.
10 Q And so --
11 MR. DUNN: Why wouldn't you let
12 the witness get the exact language?
13 MR. SEGRETO: Do we want to push
14 the clock, though?
15 MR. DUNN: I will push the
16 clock. Let the witness get the exact
17 language.
18 MR. SEGRETO: Get the exact
19 language, sir.
20 MR. DUNN: Would anybody object
21 if I call out the page?
22 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry?
23 MR. DUNN: Would anybody object
24 if I call out the page?
25 MR. KIENZ: I certainly will not.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
62
1 MR. SEGRETO: I think that's very
2 helpful of you, but one of the things that
3 we have to find out is whether or not the
4 engineer, who did the stormwater design,
5 even has any familiarity with the
6 stormwater site plan ordinance.
7 MR. DUNN: I think the witness
8 is ready to answer the question.
9 Q Have you found it?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What section?
12 A It's on Page 2265, Item "N,
13 Drainage," and it reads: "Surface runoff,
14 provision shall be made for safe and adequate
15 drainage of the surface runoff waters in and from
16 the premises so that flooding and erosion of the
17 development and the property of others will be
18 prevented."
19 Q So the standard is that you have to
20 design the stormwater system which will prevent
21 flooding. Is that right?
22 A That's what it says.
23 Q Now, the July 19, 1999 Stormwater
24 Management Report for amended planned development
25 Port Imperial South, prepared by William Chamin,
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
63
1 C-h-a-m-i-n, of your office --
2 A Right.
3 Q -- whom I am pleased to see is a
4 professional engineer --
5 A Oh, yes.
6 Q -- this indicates, does it not, on
7 Page 2 that you have done your calculations using
8 the rational method for the design storm frequency
9 of 25 years?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q That means that your system is not
12 designed to prevent a 90-year flood or a 100-year
13 flood. Right?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Therefore, your Stormwater
16 Management Plan doesn't comply with the
17 requirements of the site plan ordinance. Isn't
18 that so?
19 A No.
20 Q Explain to me why that is not so.
21 A Because if you have a storm that
22 exceeds a 25-year storm, it will simply build up
23 in the inlets in the street and wash out into the
24 Hudson River. The buildings will not be flooded.
25 In fact, the storm sewers in Weehawken and
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
64
1 a lot of towns up in this area are designed for a
2 10-year storm.
3 This town doesn't specify it has to be any
4 special storm, but most towns in this area are
5 10-year storms. We knew that. We could have done
6 a 10-year storm to justify that also. We decided
7 to be conservative and go to a 25-year storm.
8 Q And on this site there was no
9 flooding in the recent hurricane event?
10 A Tropical storm Floyd up at the very
11 north end of West New York.
12 Q I am talking about this site.
13 A Not that I am aware of.
14 Q Do you know?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q All right. Why don't you say that?
17 You made it sound as though, not that you
18 are aware of, as though you knew one way or the
19 other.
20 You simply don't know?
21 A I know the area. I know what
22 happens in certain areas of the state.
23 Q Were you there to see with your eyes
24 whether there was flooding?
25 A I was not.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
65
1 Q Now, do I understand from what you
2 have said that if you design for a one-year storm
3 or a six-month storm, and by that we mean a storm
4 that under the normal expectancy would happen once
5 every six months, that's not much of a storm at
6 all, is it?
7 A Compared to a 25-year, no.
8 Q And is it your understanding that if
9 you design this for a six-month storm that that
10 would comply with the requirements of the site
11 plan ordinance of this municipality?
12 A No, that wouldn't be good practice.
13 I would say at least a 10-year storm.
14 Q That is the standard good practice
15 or is the standard flood to prevent floods?
16 A Let me read that again.
17 It says, "so that flooding and erosion and
18 property of others be prevented."
19 Q "Prevented"?
20 A "Prevented."
21 Q Not a prayer, but prevented by a
22 design which is going to, No. 1, give you the
23 acceptable duration and the method of removing the
24 accumulation of the stormwaters. Right?
25 A Right.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
66
1 Q And you come up with 25, and you are
2 not designing it to meet the exigency of any storm
3 beyond the 25. Isn't that right?
4 A Not to be conveyed through the storm
5 sewers. They will start to flow overland after
6 that to the river.
7 Q Well, the stormwater design deals
8 not only with where the stormwater ultimately
9 goes, but it also deals with the rate and the
10 duration and the conduit capacity to receive the
11 waters and to transmit them to their ultimate
12 destination. Isn't that so?
13 A Uh-huh. Yes.
14 Q And your conduit capacity has been
15 based on a 25-year design?
16 A Right.
17 Q So if you get more and more of a
18 shorter duration and greater capacity volume
19 metrically, then your conduit is able to receive
20 and transmit, it backs up and it floods, doesn't
21 it?
22 A It backs up and it comes out of the
23 inlets in the street, yes.
24 Q And that's what a lot of people call
25 a flood, isn't it?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
67
1 A That's -- yes. Yes, we -- people
2 call that flooding.
3 Q So your system --
4 A My basement floods.
5 Q -- your system is going to have a
6 flood on the property; i.e., a backup on the
7 streets and pumping up out of the -- what do you
8 call them --
9 A Inlets.
10 Q -- inlets?
11 A Every 25 years.
12 Q 25-year storms and more than -- out
13 of 25-year storm, 50 years, and so on. Right?
14 A It could.
15 Q And you think that's conformable
16 with the requirements of this ordinance?
17 A I do. This will be the most -- the
18 best draining site in the whole town.
19 Q Even though the conduits you have
20 described or designed are not going to have the
21 capacity to remove the stormwaters in any storm
22 greater than a 25-year storm and there is going to
23 be resulting flooding on the site for any storm
24 beyond 25 years, still you think that's the best
25 draining property in where, the whole county?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
68
1 A I said in Weehawken.
2 Q In Weehawken.
3 Now, can you tell me, for example, if this
4 system, which you propose to put in, were in place
5 when we had this year's catastrophic storm, can
6 you describe graphically for us what would have
7 happened in terms of backup and flooding on this
8 property? What was that a hurricane?
9 A Flood.
10 Q The storm. Flood?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What would have happened at the time
13 of Floyd if this system that you are talking about
14 had been in the ground, if you know?
15 A I can speculate.
16 Q Do you know what the flood was, was
17 it a 100-year storm or was it a 500-year storm?
18 A It depended on the area of the state
19 you were in.
20 It was more than a 100-year storm in this
21 area.
22 Q So it's more than a 100-year storm?
23 A That's right.
24 Q And, of course, if there were people
25 out there and children out there and they were
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
69
1 subjected to the hazard of the storm, nobody is
2 going to get the calculator out to figure out if
3 it was a 100-year storm or 250-year storm. Right?
4 A I don't think so. Maybe afterward
5 they might.
6 Q After?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You mean after they pull the bodies
9 out. I will withdraw that.
10 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman --
11 Q I will withdraw that.
12 Yet I want to emphasize to you that we are
13 talking about a hazard to people, pretty important
14 stuff, and maybe --
15 MR. DUNN: What's your question?
16 Q I verbalize a little too much.
17 MR. DUNN: What's your question?
18 Q Now, with regard to water usage --
19 A Yes.
20 Q -- you came up with a number of
21 about 714,000 gallons per day of potable water
22 supply that this project is going to need. Right?
23 A Yes. It's around that, yes.
24 Q Who is the person who did the
25 calculation?
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70
1 A I actually did that calculation.
2 Q Would you get your calculation
3 sheets out.
4 A I think you have them already.
5 Q No, these are mine. I sort of put
6 them halfway between the two of us.
7 A I think I gave it to you.
8 Q I can assure you the ones with the
9 green things are all my files.
10 A Right.
11 Q I do not care to have -- I do not
12 appear to have your files.
13 Q You are saying this is yours.
14 How did all my notes get in there?
15 MR. KIENZ: No -- I don't know.
16 Were you in my folder?
17 Q Believe me --
18 A I apologize. I have mine here.
19 MR. DUNN: We are going to take
20 a break. We are going to have to take a
21 break anyway. We are going to take a
22 break. You guys get this straightened out.
23 This all would have been shortened
24 if Mr. Segreto had done what everybody
25 expected him to do, but take a break and
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
71
1 get it straightened out.
2 (Whereupon, a short recess is
3 taken.)
4 MR. GOULD: Okay.
5 MR. DUNN: Let the clerk call
6 the roll.
7 Where is the clerk?
8 THE CLERK: Mr. Rosas.
9 MR. ROSAS: Here.
10 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
11 MR. BARSA: Here.
12 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
13 MR. TURNER: Here.
14 THE CLERK: Mr. Gould.
15 MR. GOULD: Here.
16 THE CLERK: Mr. Cabrera.
17 MR. CABRERA: Here.
18 THE CLERK: Ms. Kravitz.
19 MS. KRAVITZ: Here.
20 MR. GOULD: Okay. Thank you.
21 MR. DUNN: The record should
22 reflect that there are 60 minutes of
23 cross-examination left.
24 I think we should add five minutes
25 for the one time that I said I would stop
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
72
1 the clock, and we won't start the clock
2 until I have read a portion of the
3 transcript from last -- from the last
4 meeting.
5 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Dunn, now there
6 are other reports in the file with the --
7 including the Fiscal Impact Report.
8 MR. DUNN: I guess my question
9 for -- is, do you wish to have the same
10 subpoenas issued with respect to the
11 experts in those cases as you have in this
12 one, rather than waiting until they come
13 and testify and then you have to ask for a
14 subpoena? Do you wish to have a subpoena
15 issued for those files as well, Mr.
16 Segreto?
17 If Glenn is not prepared to
18 consentually agree to furnish the
19 inspection of the files of each of the
20 experts, if he agrees to that, is that
21 agreeable?
22 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Dunn, well, we
23 have, I think it's called the hiatus here
24 between tonight and the second of December,
25 and I would like to get all of that out of
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
73
1 the way before the second of December so
2 that we can conduct an orderly proceeding,
3 as you know the statute, Mr. Segreto.
4 MR. DUNN: I think Glenn and I
5 are in accord because we indicated that
6 this lull of three or four weeks is going
7 to give us an opportunity to do several
8 things, one of which is to get the
9 inspection of the documents out of the way.
10 That's at Pages 17 and 18 of the transcript
11 of the meeting of November 4, 1999.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Counsel, you seem to
13 be constitutionally incapable of
14 understanding the difference between an
15 inspection of documents and my right to
16 have documents at the meeting, the file, so
17 that I can cross-examine while I am here.
18 MR. DUNN: But if you had
19 inspected the document, Mr. Segreto, we
20 would not have taken a lot of time tonight.
21 MR. SEGRETO: We didn't take much
22 time, and I didn't do much fumbling through
23 his file at all, and if I say so myself, I
24 have been able to pinpoint with great
25 alacrity what I want in the file, and I
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
74
1 have used it efficaciously.
2 Let's not --
3 MR. DUNN: I have one other
4 request.
5 MR. SEGRETO: You and I also have a
6 problem about time.
7 MR. DUNN: I have one other
8 request of both counsel.
9 Mayor Turner has been discussing
10 informally, as it is his right to do, as
11 the mayor of the community with the
12 Weehawken Environmental Committee and
13 members of the Friends of the Waterfront,
14 and they have requested that they be given
15 the opportunity to meet on an informal
16 basis with the board's consultants, and my
17 question to you is whether either of you
18 have any objection to that with the mayor
19 and the board's consultants.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Applicant.
21 MR. KIENZ: I was waiting to hear
22 from you, Mr. Segreto.
23 MR. SEGRETO: The applicant goes
24 first.
25 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Segreto, it's Mr.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
75
1 Dunn's rule. If Mr. Dunn would like me to
2 answer, I will be happy to.
3 The answer is, if you think that
4 would help you to move the proceedings
5 along, Mr. Chairman, yes, that would be
6 fine. No objection.
7 MR. GOULD: Mr. Segreto.
8 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto.
9 MR. SEGRETO: I am going to have to
10 talk to my people about it and find out
11 what's going to happen at these meetings.
12 Are they what, without prejudice at
13 the meetings, which means what, nothing
14 that transpires becomes a part of the
15 record --
16 MR. DUNN: That's fine.
17 MR. SEGRETO: -- that it can't be
18 used in litigation?
19 MR. DUNN: That's correct.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Let me take that up
21 with my clients. I don't speak for my
22 clients without first finding out what
23 their policy judgment is, and the question
24 you pose is not a legal one but a policy
25 question --
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
76
1 MR. DUNN: I understand.
2 MR. SEGRETO: -- which I will take
3 up with them.
4 MR. DUNN: I understood they had
5 asked. Maybe you can give us the answer by
6 the end of the evening, if it's possible.
7 MR. SEGRETO: By the way, I don't
8 know how you do your calculations, but
9 after I remonstrated again about the two
10 for one, I was told I could start my
11 cross-examination, I noted that it was
12 8:15
13 This meeting started at 7:25, and
14 you will recall the discussion among the
15 lawyers and the break, unless my clock is
16 not right, was at 8:45.
17 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Dunn, I offer a
18 stopwatch. I had 61 minutes.
19 MR. DUNN: I am willing -- I had
20 8:40, I wrote down.
21 MR. SEGRETO: What time do you have
22 now?
23 MR. DUNN: I am sorry. I wrote
24 7:40 down as the time of the
25 cross-examination.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
77
1 The first question was, "Are you a
2 PE, senior associate of PS&S?"
3 MR. SEGRETO: You are talking about
4 my cross-examination started at 7:40. The
5 meeting didn't start until 7:25. You don't
6 really think that all the chitchat between
7 us and about the letters and about this and
8 all that is --
9 MR. DUNN: I only know, Mr.
10 Segreto, I looked at my watch and I wrote
11 down 7:40.
12 My associate, Gregg Padovano, is
13 signalling that he confirmed the same
14 thing, and we broke -- we broke at 8:40.
15 MR. KIENZ: I had 61 minutes, so
16 I was one minute higher, so there are three
17 of us.
18 MR. DUNN: Let's move on. Let's
19 see what happens.
20 Q Now, Mr. Lanza, isn't it true that
21 under your stormwater management plan the rate of
22 runoff is increased?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. DUNN: Let the record
25 reflect it's two minutes to nine.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
78
1 Q And isn't it true that in storms
2 greater than 25 years, the runoff will be unable
3 to pass through the storm sewer, and your plan is
4 to direct it by sheet flow on the surface? Isn't
5 that right?
6 A Anything beyond a 25-year storm,
7 yes.
8 Q Anything more than a 25-year storm?
9 A Right.
10 Q So if there is a storm that's
11 greater than one every 25 years, what's going to
12 happen is, that the storm sewer won't have the
13 capacity to accept it in a timely way, and there
14 is going to be sheet flow; that is to say, for --
15 the water is going to flow on the surface of the
16 ground towards the river?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And spill over?
19 A Correct.
20 Q You think that's acceptable, right,
21 good stormwater management? Right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You think so.
24 Now, we had asked you, I think, about the
25 calculations of the 714,000 potable water supply.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
79
1 Didn't you include in that a need for the
2 banana building, the office, the health club and
3 the catering facilities, 32,800 gallons per day?
4 Do you remember that?
5 A That sounds about right. Can I --
6 it sounds about right.
7 Q Thus in doing your utilities
8 analysis that you testified clearly you regarded
9 the banana building to be a part of the project
10 about which you were testifying tonight at the
11 last meeting. Isn't that so?
12 A Could -- of course.
13 Q And you also included 1,632
14 residential units, 1,294,800 square feet of
15 office, 151,000 square feet of retail, 440 14-room
16 hotel, 30,000-square-foot ferry terminal, Arthur's
17 Restaurant with 240 seats, as well as the banana
18 building.
19 As a result --
20 A That's right.
21 Q Now, did you do any calculations
22 with all of these improvements? How much of the
23 property is going to be impervious surface?
24 A For the stormwater management we
25 did, yes.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
80
1 Q And how much of the property -- what
2 percentage of it is going to be impervious?
3 A I don't remember. I have to look
4 that up. One of us will know that.
5 Q I am sorry?
6 A I will give you an exact number. I
7 don't remember what the number is.
8 Q Do you know what the existing
9 impervious site coverage is on the site?
10 A Let me check my records.
11 Q Go ahead. Please check them.
12 Does someone have a stopwatch?
13 Oh, no -- I am sorry -- I thought
14 someone did that.
15 MR. BARSA: I can't even see this
16 one.
17 MR. GOULD: We are off the
18 record.
19 (Whereupon, a discussion takes place
20 off the stenographic record.)
21 MR. KIENZ: We are not on the
22 record.
23 MR. SEGRETO: All right. Let that
24 be on the record. Relax. Enjoy me. I am
25 a genial person.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
81
1 Let the record reflect that the
2 engineer is studiously looking through his
3 files and I am not cross-examining him.
4 MR. DUNN: Mr. Lanza, can you
5 answer the question?
6 THE WITNESS: Actually, Mr. Dunn, I
7 can't. I don't have that with me. I
8 didn't do the calculation for open space
9 calculations.
10 We use it -- we put on our cover
11 sheet the open space. We didn't do open
12 space calculations.
13 I think the Martin Group may have
14 done that. The percent of open space, I
15 don't have that with me.
16 Q My question deals with utility
17 calculations, backup calculations. Right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You just said you don't have that
20 with you.
21 I thought you said in response to my prior
22 question that you have all of your backup files
23 dealing with utilities?
24 A For the stormwater management. We
25 don't care what the overall impervious coverage is
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
82
1 of the site. We need to know what the impervious
2 coverage is going to each of the individual
3 inlets, and that's how the report is prepared, so
4 we know the size of the pipe that goes to each
5 inlet. It's detailed.
6 Q Isn't it true that the Stormwater
7 Management Report that you prepared for this
8 project that's going to have all of the components
9 in it that I spoke about before, a
10 million-and-a-half-square feet of office, et
11 cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that the entire
12 narrative portion of the report consists of three
13 pages?
14 A The narrative portion does, yes,
15 three pages.
16 Q Now sanitary sewage.
17 At the present time the existing eight-inch
18 lines, there are two of them. Right?
19 A Correct. There are two eight-inch
20 lines that convey sewage from up above Pershing
21 Road.
22 Q And you are going to replace them
23 with one 18-inch sewer line?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Can you tell me the amount of
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
83
1 existing square footage of the various uses,
2 structures there are and how much the footprint
3 square footage of the proposed development is
4 going to be?
5 A How many square feet the proposed
6 development is going to be, and the first part of
7 the question was?
8 Q How many square feet of footprint of
9 existing buildings. Do you know?
10 A Not offhand.
11 Q Of course, the design has to be
12 sufficient for the totality of the project.
13 Right?
14 A Oh, yes.
15 Q Now, with regard to the calculations
16 for sanitary sewers and the amount of sewage that
17 would be generated, did you use some standard?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What's the standard you used?
20 A The New Jersey Department of
21 Environmental Protection has standards.
22 Q And did somebody write down the
23 individual calculations that the district uses
24 that are contained in the DEP regulation?
25 A Somebody write them down?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
84
1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you want to get them out for me,
4 please?
5 A Sure.
6 Q It doesn't get better. Don't
7 despair.
8 A Okay. That's okay. Let me see
9 where I put them.
10 Mr. Segreto, the question was again?
11 Q Will you get out a piece of paper
12 where somebody calculated anticipated sanitary
13 sewer flow for the street, the different uses,
14 land uses, and how they fit into the regulations
15 dealing with sanitary sewer anticipated flows.
16 Somebody must have calculated. You didn't
17 just get the number and say, "Hey, that sounds
18 like a nice round number. Let me use that one."
19 Somebody had to do an analytical process. Right?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Tell me, was it the planner who did
22 that, that nice planner?
23 A No.
24 Q Who did it? Did you do it?
25 A I did it, yes.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
85
1 Q All right. Get your notes out. Did
2 you do it in your head? Did you --
3 A No.
4 Q -- get the piece of paper?
5 A I am wondering what you were reading
6 from. You seem to have the number of units
7 already, and that's why I am wondering if it's
8 redundant.
9 Q You are trying to second-guess me.
10 The file that I happen to have is Jill
11 Heartman's report of August 18, 1999, which has
12 nothing to do with that.
13 A I am sorry.
14 Q When I look down, that doesn't mean
15 that I am looking at something that's in front of
16 me.
17 A Okay.
18 Q It may be that I am asking a
19 question based on what's in my head, not what's on
20 the table.
21 A Right.
22 Q All right. Now, get your
23 calculations out, please.
24 MR. KIENZ: Let the record --
25 let's get back on the record.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
86
1 Q How did you get my file?
2 A No. That's not your file. That's
3 Mr. Kienz's file.
4 MR. KIENZ: Everybody's file, Mr.
5 Segreto, as I stated before, is identical.
6 There are 29 matching files, 30 matching
7 files. I pulled that out of my box.
8 MR. DUNN: This document is on
9 record with the board.
10 MR. KIENZ: It's been filed with
11 the board 29 times -- or 29 or 30 times,
12 Mr. Dunn. The board professionals have it.
13 The board members have it. Mr. Segreto has
14 it.
15 MR. DUNN: We don't need the
16 hyperbole.
17 It's been filed with the board since
18 September 23rd.
19 MR. KIENZ: Folder 29.
20 MR. DUNN: All right.
21 Q Now, this is a September 1, 1999
22 report. Right?
23 A Right.
24 Q I have asked you for your
25 calculations. This is what somebody typed up
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
87
1 presumably from some calculations that somebody
2 did.
3 I will ask again, do you have your
4 calculations?
5 A No. That's what I was looking for.
6 I have a copy of that, and the calculations that
7 were done are back in another file.
8 Q They are in the file?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Why not get them out?
11 A I don't have that file with me. I
12 brought the --
13 Q How many files dealing with
14 utilities did you not bring with you?
15 A One. I brought a partial of the
16 sanitary file. The sanitary system is very
17 complicated.
18 Q At the next meeting will you bring
19 the rest of the utility files, please?
20 A Yes, I will.
21 Q Now, is it your testimony that you
22 dictated this September 1, 1999 sanitary sewer
23 improvement, three-page document?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Uh-huh.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
88
1 A And the flows that are shown on
2 there are from the DEP.
3 Q Is it your understanding that the
4 DEP has a design criteria for a ferry terminal?
5 A They don't have one for the ferry
6 terminal specifically. They have other things
7 that are similar to ferry terminals.
8 Q I understand.
9 But what you said here in your report is
10 that the DEP design rate for the ferry terminal is
11 0.10 GPD/SF?
12 A Right.
13 Q And do they have a design rate for a
14 ferry terminal?
15 A Not specifically. You have to
16 interpolate between some other uses that are
17 similar to a train facility like that.
18 Q And, by the way, this catering
19 facility is going to have 1,000 seats?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Now, we will come back to that when
22 you bring the file the next time.
23 This Environmental Impact Statement
24 prepared by EcolSciences, Inc., has several
25 sections that deal with utilities.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
89
1 Did anybody in your office prepare any of
2 the utility components of the EcolSciences
3 Environmental Impact Statement report of August
4 16, 1999?
5 A No, but we did read it. We reviewed
6 it as it was prepared.
7 Q They had to prepare it from another
8 source other than you?
9 A No, we sent them our plans. We
10 discussed how the project was going to be serviced
11 with utilities, and then they wrote it up.
12 Q But you say you sent them your
13 plans?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Your utility plans?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Would you get your correspondence
18 letter in which you transmitted it to them.
19 A I didn't bring that correspondence
20 file. That's the correspondence file with another
21 consultant.
22 Q Well, I understand, but that's
23 correspondence with utilities. No?
24 A I can bring it the next time. Yes.
25 Q And that was your file?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
90
1 A Yes.
2 Q And the documents are there?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you didn't bring it?
5 A Yes, I did not bring it.
6 Q Next time bring it with you, please.
7 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
8 I have been quiet. Mr. Dunn raised
9 what was in the minutes the last time.
10 Had Mr. Segreto gone and examined
11 the files, everything would have been here
12 and we would have been able to move
13 forward.
14 This is an enormous waste of time
15 because Mr. Segreto didn't do what he
16 promised he would do on the record at the
17 last hearing.
18 MR. SEGRETO: Isn't that
19 fascinating? Isn't that fascinating?
20 The witness testified almost in
21 response to my second question, "Have you
22 brought all of your files dealing with
23 utilities?"
24 Yes, I have.
25 Where are they?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
91
1 They are in my bags.
2 Will you get them.
3 My daughter I -- I still can recall
4 what happened two hours ago.
5 Now, I keep finding that he didn't
6 bring them all, and in response to my
7 saying to the witness to bring it, now we
8 have counsel saying, "Well, Segreto should
9 have gone to look."
10 If I went to look, would he have
11 brought it? Come on.
12 MR. DUNN: He would have known
13 what you wanted, Mr. Segreto.
14 MR. SEGRETO: I wanted every
15 document dealing with utilities. That's
16 what I wanted.
17 MR. KIENZ: That's what you were
18 supposed to examine.
19 MR. DUNN: All right. Let's not
20 -- let's keep it a little civil here.
21 Q Now, with regard to any data that
22 you gave EcolSciences for them to use in the
23 preparation of their Environmental Impact
24 Statement -- and that was your work product
25 concerning utilities -- will you please get out
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
92
1 any documents or copies of any documents in your
2 utilities file that you sent to anybody at
3 EcolSciences for them to use in conjunction with
4 their Environmental Impact Statement report?
5 A The same answer. I don't have that
6 file with me.
7 Q But you do have such a file?
8 A Yes, we have a correspondence file
9 with EcolSciences.
10 Q Well, your correspondence file plus
11 the documents which you sent to them. Right?
12 A They are attached to the
13 correspondence, yes.
14 Q And did you send them the only
15 copies you have -- you had?
16 A No, we never do that.
17 Q So in addition to the copies that
18 you sent to them, which would be attached to the
19 correspondence you have in your file, hopefully,
20 here today, the original documentation from your
21 file, copies of which you sent to them. Isn't
22 that so?
23 A No.
24 Q Do you have any documents here that
25 are not attached to correspondence that's back in
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
93
1 the shop up in Warren? Do you have any documents
2 at all that you can put your hands on today and
3 say, "This is what we sent to EcolSciences dealing
4 with the utility implications of their
5 Environmental Impact Statement"?
6 A The Exhibit A-9 is the plans. Those
7 are the drawings.
8 Q You told us about that, and I am
9 grateful that you told us about that.
10 Did you send them anything else?
11 You just got finished telling me you
12 attached copies of documents to the letter, so we
13 know we are not talking about A-9. We are talking
14 about those copies?
15 A We are talking about, right, earlier
16 versions of A-9.
17 Q Are any of those documents here?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you recall the quantity of
20 documents dealing with utilities that you sent to
21 them?
22 A The quantity.
23 Q Was it just a couple of --
24 A It wasn't very much.
25 Q So it won't be much of a burden for
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
94
1 you to find them and bring them back the next
2 time. Right?
3 A No.
4 Q Okay. By the way, did you review
5 this EcolSciences Environmental Impact Statement
6 report before they put it in final form on August
7 16th?
8 A I reviewed sections of it that
9 pertain to the utilities.
10 Q By the way, did you in the
11 calculation you came up with, as to anticipated
12 sanitary sewage, did you use one standard for all
13 residential or did you use different standards for
14 different kinds of residential?
15 A The DEP has standards for
16 one-bedroom dwellings, two-bedroom dwellings,
17 three-bedroom dwellings. We assume all of them
18 will be three-bedroom dwellings. It's a little
19 conservative, but that's what we had done.
20 Q Well, what about the hotel, is there
21 a separate category for the hotel?
22 A There is a separate -- yes, there is
23 a separate category for the hotel.
24 Q Is there a separate category for
25 assisted living and independent living?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
95
1 A I believe so, yes. Yes, separate
2 category.
3 Q And is it your testimony that the
4 sheet -- that the three-page document -- I guess
5 it was a two-page document -- that we looked at
6 before, that number that you say in the document
7 came from DEP, in fact, is the number that applies
8 to residential units, assisted living, independent
9 living, that those numbers are the same?
10 A No, I said for the residential
11 units, not the hotel and not the assisted living,
12 for the residential units only. The regular
13 residential units we used the same flows DEP
14 requires.
15 Q Now, as far as the sanitary sewers,
16 that's going to be carried by lines which you are
17 going to construct, conduits that you are going to
18 construct on the property?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Are all of the existing sewer lines
21 on the property going to be removed?
22 A I believe they all -- I think I
23 testified to that last time.
24 Q Do you remember, are they going to
25 be mothballed or actually be removed?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
96
1 A They are probably going to be in the
2 way. They will be removed.
3 Q Do you know?
4 A It's a construction issue that we
5 haven't gotten to yet, but I believe all of them
6 are going to be in the way.
7 Sometimes if a utility line is not in the
8 way, you can -- it can just simply be capped and
9 left in place.
10 I don't think any of those lines are not in
11 the way, all new construction.
12 Q The existing conduits interconnect
13 into the pump station. Right?
14 A The existing conduits --
15 Q Interconnect into the pump station
16 located at the intersection of Baldwin Avenue and
17 Port Imperial Boulevard. Is that right?
18 A Yes, the Baldwin station.
19 Q What are you going to do,
20 interconnect at the same point?
21 A With the new development?
22 Q Yes.
23 A No. We are actually going to bypass
24 the Baldwin Avenue pump station, as I testified
25 last, and build a new pump station.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
97
1 Q And what's going to be the capacity
2 of the pump station?
3 A It's going to be enough to handle
4 the 700,000 gallons per day.
5 Q Come on. Give me an engineering
6 answer. Don't tell me it's going to be enough.
7 Tell me what the design capacity is.
8 A It will be 1.4 million gallons per
9 day.
10 Q And the pump station is going to
11 transmit it to where?
12 A Directly to the treatment plant in
13 Hoboken.
14 Q And is there any bypassing in times
15 of storm on any of this system?
16 A The new system that we build for
17 this project, there will be no bypassing of storm
18 or bypassing of sanitary.
19 Q I understand that.
20 What I want to know about is the system
21 into which you go, is there any regular bypassing
22 done into the river in times of a storm?
23 A The system into which we go is the
24 treatment plant. We are going directly to the
25 treatment plant.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
98
1 Q And do they bypass in times of
2 storms?
3 A The treatment plant?
4 Q Yes.
5 A There are several locations in this
6 system that have overflows that go to the river.
7 Sure.
8 Q When you say "overflows," that means
9 that in times of storms the sanitary sewage ends
10 up in the Hudson River. Isn't that so?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Now, they have got a certain
13 hydrology capacity?
14 A At the treatment plant, yes --
15 Q Yes.
16 A -- they have plenty of capacity.
17 Q And what happens, of course, is that
18 a lot of the hydrology capacity, which would be
19 capable of receiving sanitary sewer flow in times
20 of storms, isn't of a sufficient capacity to
21 accept the plant -- can accept the combined storm
22 flows and the sanitary sewer flows. Isn't that
23 so?
24 A No, it's not the plant that can't
25 handle it. The plant can handle it.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
99
1 Q The conduits?
2 A The conduits to the plant get backed
3 up when it rains very heavily.
4 Q Now, you are talking about a
5 project, for example, the Port Imperial South
6 project, is going to generate 711,000 gallons per
7 day, the sanitary -- of sanitary sewage. Isn't
8 that right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q How much is the Port Imperial North
11 project going to generate per day?
12 A It's comparable to that. It might
13 be -- it might be a little bit higher.
14 Q Like how much?
15 A It might be 800 or 900,000 gallons
16 per day as opposed to 700,000 gallons per day.
17 I don't recall. It's in that range.
18 Q And this --
19 A That goes to a different treatment
20 plant, though.
21 Q Is that going to have -- well, the
22 treatment plant that that goes to also has an
23 overflow problem, doesn't it?
24 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
25 This is all irrelevant and a waste
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
100
1 of time.
2 MR. DUNN: Irrelevant.
3 MR. SEGRETO: Utilities, what are
4 you talking about it's irrelevant? It's
5 going to be resultant degradation,
6 increased degradation of the Hudson River.
7 The attorney for the planning board
8 of Weehawken tells me that's irrelevant?
9 MR. DUNN: He testified that
10 sewage from that facility is going to
11 another plant.
12 MR. SEGRETO: And the question was,
13 that plant, that part is going to go to
14 also has overflow problems, isn't that so,
15 an absolutely important public safety issue
16 that's implicated in my question.
17 MR. KIENZ: It has got nothing to
18 do with this project.
19 MR. DUNN: The objection is
20 sustained.
21 Q Now, with regard to this area where
22 the Port Imperial South project is, what is the
23 present sanitary sewage gallon-per-day generation?
24 A I don't think I have calculated
25 that. It's going from the restaurant and the
Lanza - Cross - Segreto

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Jump to 12/02/99 pages 151 to 177 (end of transcript)

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