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DECEMBER 2, 1999

Witness Geoffrey Robert Lanza
Utilities & Engineering Expert
Cross Examination by the Public & James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on December 2nd, 1999.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 4 different web pages.

Jump to 12/02/99 pages 51to 100
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Jump to 12/02/99 pages 151 to 177 (end of transcript)

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7:00 PM
8 MARK GOULD, Chairman
11 PILAR BARDROFF, Board Clerk
16 Appearing on behalf of the Board.
18 Appearing on behalf of the Applicant.
20 Attorney for the Objectors.
(973) 285-5331 - FAX (973) 285-5293
1 I N D E X
5 by Mr. Segreto 22
7 I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S
9 B-1 Letter dated November 11,
1999 from Weiner Lesniak to
10 James P. Segreto 11
1 MR. GOULD: Okay. This is a
2 regular public meeting of the Weehawken
3 Planning Board.
4 It has been called in accordance
5 with the Open Public Meetings Act of the
6 State of New Jersey in accordance with the
7 board's motion adopted on October 14, 1999.
8 We have a letter from Donna Jandik,
9 indicating that she faxed an agenda of the
10 meeting to the Bergen Record, the Jersey
11 Journal and the Weehawken Reporter, and
12 posted it in the municipal building and
13 filed it with the township clerk.
14 Will the clerk please call the roll
15 call.
16 THE CLERK: Mr. Rosas.
17 MR. ROSAS: Here.
18 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
19 MR. BARSA: Here.
20 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
21 MR. TURNER: Here.
22 THE CLERK: Mr. Gould.
23 MR. GOULD: Here.
24 THE CLERK: Ms. Kravitz.
25 MS. KRAVITZ: Here.
1 MR. GOULD: Okay. The first item
2 on tonight's agenda is the payment of
3 bills.
4 I have handed out copies to all the
5 board members.
6 The total of all the bills is
7 $14,726.10.
8 Is there any discussion on any of
9 the bills indicated?
10 MR. DUNN: I just note -- I just
11 want to note the Burgis Associates bill of
12 11/23 belongs as an escrow item.
13 MR. GOULD: Okay. Any additional
14 comment?
15 MR. TURNER: I will move the
16 bills.
17 MR. GOULD: Okay. Anybody
18 second?
19 MR. BARSA: Second.
20 MR. ROSAS: Second.
21 MR. GOULD: Okay. Roll call,
22 please.
23 THE CLERK: Anthony Rosas.
24 MR. ROSAS: Yes.
25 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
1 MR. BARSA: Yes.
2 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
3 MR. TURNER: Yes.
4 THE CLERK: Mr. Gould.
5 MR. GOULD: Yes.
6 THE CLERK: Ms. Kravitz.
8 MR. GOULD: Okay. Thank you.
9 The next item on tonight's agenda is
10 the continued public hearing of a
11 preliminary planned development application
12 for Block 36.05, Lot 1.01; Block 36.05.
13 Lot 2.01; Block 45, Lots 6, 7, 8 and 9;
14 Block 45.01, Lots 1.01, 2.01, 3.01, and
15 4.01; Block 45.02, Lot 1.01; Block 64, Lots
16 8 and 9; Block 64.01, Lots 1.01, 2.01, and
17 3.01; Block 64.02, Lot 1.01; and Block
18 64.03, Lot 1.01.
19 The applicant is Port Imperial
20 South, LLC.
21 Will counsel please enter their
22 appearances.
23 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I am
24 Glenn Kienz from Weiner Lesniak.
25 I am here on behalf of the
1 applicant.
2 MR. SEGRETO: James P. Segreto for
3 the objectors.
4 MR. GOULD: Okay. Any other
5 counsel?
6 Okay. We have received a letter
7 from the Weehawken Environmental Committee,
8 and we are handing a copy to each counsel.
9 This is not being made a part of the
10 record at this time, and the WEC will be
11 permitted to make a presentation at the
12 appropriate time.
13 Will you hand one to Mr. Segreto,
14 please.
15 MR. GOULD: Okay. Before we get
16 started, Mr. Dunn, do you have any
17 procedural matters to bring up?
18 MR. DUNN: Yes. I have three.
19 On November 14th -- November 4th,
20 Mr. Segreto, it was stipulated that you
21 would have the opportunity to review
22 records of the various experts of the
23 applicant in lieu of a subpoena.
24 Are you satisfied with your
25 examination?
1 MR. SEGRETO: Well, I looked at
2 some records of the environmental
3 consulting firm, and the subject matter of
4 that direction, that the documents be
5 produced, dealt exclusively with the
6 environmental records.
7 MR. DUNN: No, it did not. No,
8 it did not.
9 MR. SEGRETO: Those are the only
10 ones that were made available for my
11 inspection.
12 MR. DUNN: Did you ask to have
13 other documents made available?
14 MR. SEGRETO: My request, Mr. Dunn,
15 had to do with the first witness, and I
16 indicated I would want to see his records
17 that were used in connection with the
18 environmental assessment report.
19 MR. DUNN: I think the
20 transcript will reflect --
21 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry.
22 MR. DUNN: What I said to you
23 was that this matter has been pending
24 before the board since October 14th, and at
25 the first meeting -- or, actually, it's
1 been pending before the board since
2 September 23rd -- and at the first meeting
3 of the board you made a demand on the
4 witness who was testifying for his
5 documents.
6 It was determined that we would use
7 the hiatus to allow you to examine the
8 documents of other experts so that we had
9 no delay.
10 This board has a statutory
11 obligation to act on this application
12 within 120 days, and it was my
13 understanding of what we were doing last
14 month was giving you the opportunity during
15 this one-month hiatus to examine the
16 records of the other aspects.
17 Mr. Kienz indicated that he would
18 make them available to you, and I am just
19 asking you tonight if you are satisfied
20 with your examination of those records.
21 MR. SEGRETO: I am not satisfied
22 because I haven't examined any records of
23 any experts other than the environmental
24 expert.
25 I made it very clear at the last
1 meeting that we would all save a lot of
2 time if Mr. Lanza, who is the second expert
3 that I will be cross-examining, would bring
4 with him those records of his company
5 dealing with the subject matter, which was
6 a limited one, of his direct engineering
7 testimony, which had to do with utilities,
8 and I trust that he has brought them here
9 this evening.
10 I cannot go in and look at the
11 records when I don't even know the sequence
12 of who is going to be coming in here and
13 who I will be cross-examining.
14 MR. DUNN: We offered you the
15 opportunity to have all the records in lieu
16 of a subpoena.
17 We cannot --
18 MR. SEGRETO: We can call all night
19 long. I have said several times the only
20 ones I had an opportunity to examine are
21 the ones dealing with the environmentalist.
22 MR. DUNN: Well, all right.
23 Mr. Kienz, do you have anything to
24 say on this subject?
25 MR. KIENZ: Yes, I quite frankly
1 have to disagree pretty strongly about
2 that.
3 We sent a letter right after, in
4 close proximity to the last hearing,
5 because I think we were all very, very
6 clear that we wanted to move ahead
7 expeditiously because the 120-day period
8 expires on February 11th, and we indicated
9 that other witnesses in the letter,
10 including Geof Lanza, Elizabeth McLoughlin,
11 Dr. David Listokin, Laura Staines, Michael
12 Giardino, and Scott Parker would be
13 testifying and that their records will be
14 available, and that in the interim, since
15 we had some time between the last meeting
16 and tonight, that those records should be
17 examined so that we can move forward.
18 I believe the transcript will
19 reflect that statement. We sent a letter
20 confirming that, and we never heard
21 anything.
22 MR. DUNN: What's the date of
23 your letter?
24 MR. KIENZ: I have one in front
25 of me dated November 11th.
1 We were also instructed by the board
2 to also mark exhibits ahead of time, and in
3 that letter we also did that, and we asked
4 at your convenience that we get together,
5 and there was no response to our
6 correspondence to that either.
7 MR. DUNN: All right. I am
8 going to ask the reporter to mark a
9 November 11, 1999 letter to Mr. Segreto
10 from Weiner Lesniak.
11 I got a copy.
12 MR. SEGRETO: From whom was the
13 letter?
14 MR. DUNN: Weiner Lesniak to
15 James V. Segreto, Esq.
16 MR. SEGRETO: You are talking about
17 the applicant's attorney.
18 MR. DUNN: The applicant's
19 attorney.
20 I am going to ask the reporter to
21 mark that as an exhibit for identification,
22 B-1, and ask Mr. Segreto if he received
23 that letter on or about November 11, 1999.
24 (Letter dated November 11, 1999 from
25 Weiner Lesniak to James P. Segreto is
1 marked as Exhibit B-1 for identification.)
2 MR. KIENZ: The letter also
3 requested in writing whatever documents
4 that he wanted. It's on the second page.
5 MR. DUNN: Well, let Mr. Segreto
6 tell me whether he received the letter.
7 MR. GOULD: While we are waiting,
8 will the record reflect that Albert Cabrera
9 has come in and is now present.
10 MR. DUNN: The question is did
11 you receive it.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Well, I don't have my
13 correspondence file, but I suspect, if it
14 was sent to me by fax and regular mail,
15 that we received it, yes.
16 It is totally irrelevant to the
17 issue which is before us.
18 MR. DUNN: No, it isn't.
19 This board -- this board cannot be
20 engaged in delays that are -- that result
21 from the failure of counsel to do things
22 that were offered to him.
23 Right now this minute it's not
24 important, assuming Mr. Lanza has his
25 records with him, you can fairly
1 cross-examine him tonight, but the practice
2 of asking a witness at the time of the --
3 that the witness appears for examination
4 for the documents so that you can
5 cross-examine on it, is an unduly delaying
6 process, and so we expect --
7 MR. SEGRETO: I don't understand.
8 MR. DUNN: We fully expected --
9 we fully expected that with this -- you
10 would engage in your discovery during this
11 month.
12 You, apparently, have not. It's not
13 there is nothing before us on the issue
14 at this time other than I wanted to make
15 sure that we had extended every courtesy to
16 you and that you had an opportunity to take
17 advantage of it, so if there are future
18 requests for subpoenas or document
19 examination that is not stipulated to by
20 the applicant, we are going to take this
21 letter into account and the proceedings of
22 the last meeting.
23 MR. SEGRETO: I would suggest more
24 to the point that if I may request for
25 production of documents to use in
1 connection with cross-examination instead
2 of taking into account the letter from
3 counsel, which was a self-serving letter,
4 that you take into account the 30 cases
5 which I cited in my letter brief, which I
6 faxed to both of you today.
7 MR. DUNN: That's No. 2.
8 MR. SEGRETO: Would you let me
9 finish my thoughts.
10 MR. DUNN: That's No. 2 on my
11 list.
12 MR. SEGRETO: You are being a
13 little impertinent toward me. Let me
14 finish my thoughts. You are putting things
15 on the record. Let me put my side of the
16 story on the record.
17 I have submitted to the board a
18 detailed catalogue of cases which deal with
19 the subject, and these are not the views or
20 the self-serving statements of an
21 adversary, but the decisions of our courts,
22 which say that I have a right where I am
23 cross-examining a witness to have access to
24 the files which deal with the subject
25 matter of his direct examination.
1 That's the criteria which is
2 relevant, not what Doug said in his letter.
3 Now, we don't have any delays at all
4 because I made it very clear on the
5 transcript that we can avoid the phenomena
6 of delay if Mr. Lanza, when he comes here
7 at the next meeting for my
8 cross-examination, has with him the
9 relevant records which deal with the
10 subject matter of his direct, and I trust
11 that he has done that and we won't have any
12 delay.
13 Now, once I have done my
14 cross-examination of Mr. Lanza, I guess he
15 will put another witness on, I will want
16 each witness to bring with him, not the
17 totality of all of the files in their
18 office, I want him to bring with him those
19 files which are relevant to the subject
20 matter of his direct examination.
21 I don't have to go --
22 MR. DUNN: It's at that point
23 that you will go through the records to
24 determine what's relevant.
25 MR. SEGRETO: I have news for you,
1 where I ask -- when I do my
2 cross-examination I will use those records
3 in rapid-fire. I hope I have a
4 considerable assimilative capacity, and you
5 will find, for example, if Mr. Lanza has
6 brought his records dealing with the
7 subject matter of his direct, you will find
8 with alacrity I am able to go through them
9 and pull the relevant ones and ask him.
10 I am not going to be sitting here
11 mumbling inaudibly. Let me do my thing my
12 way because my way is the way of the
13 attorney who is representing the objectors,
14 and my way is in accordance with the
15 decisional law.
16 MR. DUNN: All right.
17 MR. SEGRETO: And I don't know why
18 we are going around and around on this
19 subject. We could be cross-examining the
20 witness.
21 MR. DUNN: My next point, Mr.
22 Segreto, is a question of courtesy.
23 I acknowledged receipt at 15:55 PM
24 today of a seven-page letter that was
25 promised to me at the November 4th meeting.
1 I take it -- Mr. Kienz, have you
2 received the letter?
3 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Dunn, I am not
4 going to acknowledge. I am a little
5 aggravated, quite frankly, because I was
6 not even in my office. I was in transit.
7 So at 15:55, which seems like it's
8 about four o'clock, as I understand it, on
9 the day of a hearing to get something like
10 this, I think, is grossly unfair and is
11 inappropriate and unacceptable.
12 MR. SEGRETO: I take umbridge of
13 the fact, not so much what my adversary is
14 doing, because I expect that, that's part
15 of the adversarial process, but that the
16 board attorney is creating in conjunction
17 with Mr. Kienz, a straw man.
18 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object
19 to that.
20 MR. DUNN: It's not in
21 conjunction with Mr. Kienz.
22 I am offended, as a judge would be,
23 to receive a document at four o'clock in
24 the afternoon. Fortunately, I had not left
25 my office, but my custom is to leave at
1 four o'clock when I have a seven o'clock
2 meeting so I can get some dinner.
3 I am offended by receiving that
4 letter today that you promised at the
5 November 4th meeting.
6 Now, I am not in a position to
7 comment on it or to rule on it at this
8 point, but I am letting you know I am
9 offended by receiving a letter at four
10 o'clock on the day of the hearing.
11 MR. SEGRETO: Maybe my recollection
12 is defective, but didn't I cite these
13 cases, each and every one of the cases,
14 which I cited in my December 2nd letter, in
15 a supplemental submittal to Judge
16 McLaughlan about two-and-a-half weeks ago?
17 MR. DUNN: First of all, I don't
18 know, because I haven't had a chance to
19 compare your two letters. I didn't think I
20 had to compare your two letters to
21 determine -- to determine whether or not
22 you have cited them to me.
23 The letter today was in response to
24 your request in this hearing on this
25 record, which has nothing to do with the
1 record before Judge McLaughlan.
2 It was in this hearing on this
3 record as to your request that we
4 reconsider the rule with respect to the
5 cross-examination -- cross-examination
6 limit.
7 I received that letter in this
8 proceeding today at four o'clock, and I
9 find that to be unacceptable.
10 MR. SEGRETO: And you don't know
11 whether or not each and every one of the
12 cases which I cited here, I citied in the
13 supplemental brief.
14 MR. DUNN: I don't.
15 MR. SEGRETO: That was submitted to
16 Judge McLaughlan, which you got
17 two-and-a-half weeks ago.
18 MR. DUNN: I don't.
19 MR. SEGRETO: If you think that's a
20 distinction worthy of this kind of
21 dialogue, you go right ahead, but I think
22 you are being disingenuous, if you got all
23 these cases two-and-a-half weeks a go, but
24 instead of its being addressed to you in
25 this proceeding, it was addressed to all of
1 the attorneys, and to Judge McLaughlan.
2 MR. DUNN: On an entirely
3 different issue.
4 MR. SEGRETO: If you say so.
5 I am ready to begin my
6 cross-examination once all of the dialogue
7 and things that my adversary and the
8 attorney want to put on the record.
9 MR. DUNN: All right. Mr.
10 Kienz, when you have seen the letter from
11 Mr. Segreto, you will have an opportunity
12 to reply to it, and then I will make
13 whatever ruling I have to.
14 In the meantime, we will proceed
15 with Mr. Lanza's cross-examination for a
16 period of 120 minutes.
17 MR. SEGRETO: How long?
18 MR. DUNN: 120 minutes, but
19 before we do --
20 MR. GOULD: Before we begin that,
21 I am going to ask anyone, who is not
22 represented by Mr. Segreto, whether they
23 wish to ask questions of Mr. Lanza on the
24 matters to which he testified.
25 THE PUBLIC: Can I ask questions
1 when he is finished?
2 MR. DUNN: Yes.
3 MR. GOULD: Okay. Is there
4 anybody else who would like to ask
5 questions of Mr. Lanza now?
6 Okay. In that case, Mr. Segreto,
7 would you like to begin your
8 cross-examination?
9 MR. SEGRETO: I do want to
10 remonstrate, as I did on the record last
11 time, to the arbitrary setting of time
12 based upon a formula that was not made in
13 heaven.
14 It wasn't made in the cases that
15 says that on -- on my cross-examination I
16 get twice as much time as the direct, and I
17 object to it, and I will proceed to do my
18 cross-examination, and, most respectfully,
19 Mr. Chairman, I think you should exercise
20 the discretion which was articulated on the
21 record at the first meeting; namely, that
22 once the allocated time is up, then it will
23 be within the discretion of the chairman to
24 determine whether or not I can continue.
25 MR. DUNN: For good cause.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. SEGRETO: I think the criteria
2 is whether or not I am demonstrably asking
3 asking relevant questions or whether or not
4 I am asking irrelevant questions, but, in
5 any event, Mr. Lanza, please.
6 MR. GOULD: Before you begin, Mr.
7 Lanza, I will remind you that you are still
8 under oath.
9 G E O F F R E Y R O B E R T L A N Z A,
10 previously sworn.
12 Q Mr. Lanza, you are a professional
13 engineer, are you not, sir?
14 A Yes, I am.
15 Q And you are the senior associate of
16 the Paulus, Sokolowski & Sartor engineering firm,
17 which represents the applicant. Is that not so?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q In connection with this particular
20 application you are responsible for the management
21 of this site development project. Isn't that so?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q You coordinated the efforts of all
24 the other associates of the office. You oversaw
25 it and you did the supervision. Isn't that so?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, as I recall it, the intenment
3 of your direct testimony of the -- I don't know if
4 it was the last meeting, I think it was -- was to
5 limit your testimony to utility issues. Isn't
6 that so?
7 A That's right.
8 Q I take it that you will be back at a
9 subsequent time to talk about other engineering
10 aspects of this application. Isn't that so?
11 A Yes, I will.
12 Q Now, with regard to the utilities
13 aspect of this project, did you bring your files
14 dealing with utilities?
15 A I did.
16 Q Wonderful.
17 Where are they, please?
18 A They are in my bags over there. I
19 thought you were coming to my office,
20 unfortunately, I would have brought you copies. I
21 thought you were coming to my office. I brought
22 them for my use.
23 Q Did we make an appointment?
24 A You never called.
25 Q Do you recall at the last meeting I
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 said I would appreciate it if you would bring them
2 to the next meeting?
3 A No.
4 Q Could --
5 A I recall you were coming to our
6 office.
7 Q You have them here now?
8 A Of course I do.
9 Q Now, you say you got them in your
10 bags?
11 A Yes. May I put this down and I will
12 get them? May I get them?
13 MR. KIENZ: Yes, Mr. Lanza.
14 Q Yes, please.
15 Mr. Lanza, if I were as young as you, I
16 would go get them myself.
17 MR. SEGRETO: Do you have a
18 stopwatch, Mr. Dunn?
19 MR. DUNN: Pardon?
20 MR. SEGRETO: Do you have a
21 stopwatch that you could push while he is
22 rummaging through his document? I am not
23 cross-examining him now.
24 MR. DUNN: You asked for them.
25 He is producing them.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 THE WITNESS: These are --
2 Q I want you to hold onto them.
3 A Okay.
4 MR. DUNN: You don't want to
5 look at them?
6 MR. SEGRETO: Won't you please let
7 me do it my way. I am going to do it my
8 way anyway, Mr. Dunn. Reconcile yourself
9 to that, please.
10 Q Now, are those all of the backup
11 documents in your file dealing with utilities?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. Now, there are also some
14 plans that deal with utilities. Isn't that so?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And the application itself indicates
17 that the licensed engineer who prepares --
18 prepared plans is Geoffrey R. Lanza. That's you.
19 Right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q That's true, isn't it?
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q Do you have the utility plans here,
24 too?
25 A Yes. They are Exhibit A-9, yes,
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A-9.
2 Q Now, there is an Environmental
3 Impact Statement that was prepared by
4 EcolSciences.
5 You are aware of that, aren't you?
6 A Yes.
7 Q You have seen it?
8 A Yes.
9 Q There is an Environmental Impact
10 Statement prepared by your office, too, isn't
11 there?
12 A For the banana building, I believe.
13 Q That's what it was for.
14 And in both of those Environmental Impact
15 Statements references are made to utilities.
16 Isn't that so?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Now, with regard to the
19 Environmental Impact Statement entitled "For
20 Planned Development Application, Banana Building
21 Development, Weehawken," dated August 1999, did
22 you personally dictate and prepare any of the
23 components of that Environmental Impact Statement?
24 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chair, I am
25 going to object to this line of
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 questioning.
2 Mr. Lanza's testimony was quite
3 clear. He limited himself to providing
4 testimony on utilities.
5 If Mr. Segreto is going to go on a
6 fishing expedition for other documents and
7 if we are getting back into environmental
8 issues, that's not Mr. Lanza's direct
9 testimony.
10 That's the reason I am saying
11 objection.
12 MR. DUNN: He asked him whether
13 he personally dictated it. I think he can
14 answer the question.
15 A I did not dictate. I reviewed the
16 writeups for the utilities, for the EIS to
17 finalize.
18 Q Now, the Environmental Impact
19 Statement prepared my your office, which you
20 reviewed and approved, it has a component dealing
21 with utilities, doesn't it; i.e., Section 3.8,
22 groundwater; 3.9, water supply; 3.10, utilities;
23 3.11, sanitary sewers. That's so, isn't it?
24 A That's so.
25 Q Isn't that so?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A That's so.
2 Q All right. And that's relevant to
3 the subjects that you testified to on direct
4 testimony, isn't it, utilities?
5 A You mentioned groundwater. I didn't
6 testify about groundwater.
7 Q Well, doesn't groundwater have an
8 effect on the stormwater system?
9 A No.
10 Q No?
11 A No.
12 Q You don't think that groundwater --
13 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman --
14 excuse me -- I object.
15 He answered the question. He is
16 being badgered now.
17 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry.
18 MR. DUNN: We haven't heard -- I
19 haven't heard the end of the question yet.
20 MR. SEGRETO: I wasn't given the
21 chance to say it.
22 Q Isn't it true that there is an
23 intimate relationship between the extant
24 groundwater and the groundwater that perculates
25 through a pervious surface?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A I am not sure I follow your
2 question.
3 Q Well, you know there is a difference
4 between impervious surface and pervious surface.
5 Isn't that so?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And pervious surface permits
8 precipitation, water, to go into the groundwater,
9 doesn't it?
10 A Right. Yes.
11 Q And when you do a stormwater study,
12 don't you take into account the square footage of
13 impervious surface and the square footage of
14 pervious surface?
15 A Sure.
16 Q And you still say that groundwater
17 has nothing to do with the design of a storm drain
18 system. Is that right?
19 A Design of a storm drain system or
20 this system?
21 Q Well, first, generically, a storm
22 drain system.
23 A It could if the groundwater table is
24 high.
25 Q Well, isn't the groundwater table
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 here six to eight feet from the surface?
2 A That's right.
3 Q It's pretty high?
4 A Not really.
5 Q Not really.
6 How deep do you intend to put your utility
7 lines?
8 A It's -- they are going to vary. The
9 lowest elevation will be Elevation 3 at the Hudson
10 River.
11 Q And what's the deepest depth at
12 which you are going to put them?
13 A That's it. That's the lowest.
14 The deepest depth will be back by the
15 Boulevard. They will be down probably five feet.
16 Q Are you going to put all your
17 utilities under the impervious liner or are you
18 going to put that, your utilities, above the
19 impervious liner?
20 A The impervious liner, which is going
21 to be used only for chromium, the utilities will
22 be above that.
23 Q Are you telling me that the
24 impervious liner is going to be used only where
25 the contaminants are chromium?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And there is not going to be any
3 impervious liner where other extant contaminants
4 are?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And as to them, you are going to
7 cap, right, with what, buildings?
8 A Yes, buildings.
9 Q That's like people who live in the
10 buildings, and those are the buildings that are
11 going to be capping the area where they are not?
12 MR. DUNN: This is beyond the
13 scope of direct, Mr. Segreto. It's beyond
14 the scope of direct of the utilities.
15 This has to do with Mr. Friedman's
16 testimony as to environmental --
17 MR. SEGRETO: The testimony in this
18 case from the environmentalist is that
19 there will be no problem about repairing,
20 people going in to attend to problems in
21 the utility lines because all of the
22 utility lines are going to be put in above
23 the impervious liner.
24 Now, that, obviously, is the subject
25 that deals with utilities, and it is my
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 understanding that I am supposed to ask him
2 about utilities.
3 I want to know whether or not these
4 utilities are going to be above the
5 impervious liner or under the impervious
6 liner.
7 MR. DUNN: That's a proper
8 question. That's a proper question. I
9 will allow it.
10 MR. SEGRETO: Let me get to it.
11 MR. DUNN: I will allow the
12 witness to answer it.
13 MR. SEGRETO: What you compel me to
14 do is make a proffer which tips the witness
15 off about what direction I am going.
16 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object
17 to that, and I am going to object to that
18 on the record.
19 I was waiting to hear your question.
20 I was going to raise the exact same
21 objection.
22 If you ask the question directly,
23 Mr. Lanza will answer it and we can move on
24 and you will need not be interrupted.
25 Otherwise, we are wasting time.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: Do you want an answer
2 to the question you just asked?
4 Q Answer the question I just asked.
5 A Utilities will be above the
6 impermeable liner. The impermeable liner will be
7 wrapped underneath the utilities, so if there are
8 any repairs that have to be done to the utilities,
9 in areas that used to have chromium above a
10 certain elevation, that chromium will be taken
11 away, clean material will be put in around
12 utilities, the line will go in underneath
13 utilities. If the repairman has to get to it, he
14 digs through clean material.
15 Q You indicated the impervious liner
16 is going to be wrapped around the utility lines.
17 Right?
18 A No, underneath.
19 Q Well, didn't you say "wrapped
20 around"?
21 A Wrapped underneath.
22 Q Wrapped underneath?
23 A Right.
24 Q How far underneath the line?
25 A Probably six inches.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 Q And, for example, you know what
2 risers are on a sanitary sewer manhole structure.
3 Right?
4 Is this impervious liner going to be below
5 the risers, the foundation of the risers?
6 A If the sanitary manhole is in an
7 area where there is chromium, yes.
8 Q It's going to be six inches from the
9 bottom of the utility, right, the line?
10 A Correct.
11 Q And, now, when there is a
12 misalignment, which is causing blocked filtration
13 of the sanitary sewage and the crew comes with the
14 backhoe to excavate to get under the misaligned
15 conduit, he has got six inches of tolerance from
16 the impervious liner. Isn't that right?
17 A He will hit the pipe first.
18 Q Well, doesn't -- where you have
19 misalignment -- you know what "misalignment" is,
20 don't you?
21 A Yes.
22 Q A deflection, right, and in order to
23 correct that, don't you have to go in and excavate
24 under to determine what's causing the
25 misalignment, whether it's the subsidence or a
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 failure of proper compaction?
2 A Right. Yes.
3 Q And you are telling me that they are
4 going to do all of that with their backhoe with a
5 six-inch tolerance from this impervious liner?
6 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman --
7 Q Is that right?
8 MR. KIENZ: -- I object to this.
9 If he can just ask a question in a
10 civil tone, Mr. Lanza can answer the
11 question.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Now we are going to
13 argue about tones and voice?
14 MR. KIENZ: We are. That's
15 right.
16 MR. DUNN: I do think you need
17 to be respectful of the witness, Mr.
18 Segreto.
19 MR. SEGRETO: If I sometimes --
20 MR. DUNN: But the record -- the
21 record will reflect the question, and if
22 the witness can answer it, he can answer
23 it.
24 MR. SEGRETO: And sometimes the
25 tone of incredulity is part of the
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 cross-examination process, but, in any
2 event --
3 Q Isn't that so?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And he is going to do this within
6 six inches?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And if somehow or another the
9 backhoe operator misjudges the outreach, all he is
10 -- he has got to be off is by six inches, and --
11 you know -- those iron fork protrusions, they are
12 going to breach the liner, aren't they?
13 A If you miss it by more than six
14 inches, he can hit the liner, yes.
15 Q And, of course, this is going to be
16 a general contractor who is there. Right?
17 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I am
18 going to object.
19 He is speculating who is going to do
20 work -- he is assuming there are going to
21 be breaches.
22 MR. SEGRETO: Please, counsel, let
23 me do my thing.
24 I am speculating there is going to
25 be a general contractor.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 Who do you think is going to do it?
2 MR. KIENZ: I have an objection
3 on the record.
4 It's not a question about somebody's
5 cross-examination and "doing their thing."
6 This is an orderly process. We are coming
7 in with a permitted use. We are going over
8 old ground.
9 MR. SEGRETO: Please.
10 MR. KIENZ: Can I finish?
11 You asked --
12 MR. SEGRETO: You are using my
13 time. They already don't give me much
14 time. You are using it.
15 Talking now in generalities about
16 permitted uses, that's a planning board --
17 MR. DUNN: The objection is
18 sustained.
19 MR. KIENZ: Thank you.
20 Q In any event, the liner is going to
21 be six inches under the line. Right?
22 A Correct.
23 Q What happens in doing the utility
24 repair if the backhoe breaches the liner, tears a
25 gap, what happens?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A I don't know.
2 Q Now, with regard to your
3 Environmental Impact Statement report of August
4 1999, who is the engineer, if it was an engineer
5 in your office, who wrote Sections 3.8, 3.9, 3.10,
6 and 3.11 in the report?
7 A What were they again, utilities?
8 Q 3.8 is groundwater.
9 Let's do this: I will forget about
10 groundwater. You don't seem to think that it
11 implicates stormwater.
12 The water supply, utilities and sanitary
13 sewer, who is the engineer who wrote those
14 sections in your office?
15 A That was a planner. It was
16 Elizabeth McLoughlin.
17 Q This was a planner?
18 A Right.
19 Q Does this planner also have a PE?
20 A No.
21 Q And you think that the environmental
22 impact of utilities is a planning function and not
23 an engineering function?
24 A It's an interesting question.
25 I had input.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Now answer the --
2 MR. DUNN: Let the witness
3 answer the question, please.
4 A I had input on the impact statement,
5 as I said earlier.
6 Q Now, this planner, what is the name
7 of this planner?
8 A Elizabeth McLoughlin.
9 Q Who did the utility components?
10 A Elizabeth McLoughlin.
11 Q By the way, in your environmental
12 report you also have a Section 3.7, "Surface Water
13 Quality."
14 Did she also do that, Elizabeth McLoughlin?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q I take it then that the planner is
17 the one who did the inventory of existing surface
18 water quality conditions on the site. Is that so?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Where did she get that information?
21 A She is in the environmental
22 department at PS&S, and I am in the civil
23 engineering department.
24 We give her most of the information she
25 needs for the utility information.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 Q All right. I assume that that
2 utility information that she needed and that you
3 gave to her is included in your utility files?
4 A And the plans, yes.
5 MR. DUNN: Mr. Kienz, has this
6 Mr. Segreto, can you tell me whether
7 this document has been -- is part of this
8 application or is it part of some other
9 application?
10 MR. SEGRETO: This is for the
11 planned development application banana
12 building development, August 1999.
13 MR. KIENZ: The answer is it's
14 clearly part of another application.
15 Mr. Segreto is well aware of that
16 fact.
17 MR. SEGRETO: What other
18 application is that?
19 MR. KIENZ: There is a site plan
20 application in conjunction with the banana
21 building. Under the Weehawken ordinance
22 you also have to file it as part of the
23 planned development in order to qualify.
24 MR. SEGRETO: The banana building,
25 as I understand it, is part of this
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 application and, obviously, if the engineer
2 has prepared an Environmental Impact
3 Statement for the banana building and the
4 banana building is a part of this
5 application, it is relevant to this
6 application.
7 MR. KIENZ: If certainly is not
8 relevant to the testimony of Mr. Lanza on
9 the utilities.
10 I was patient and let that go. It's
11 not going to his direct.
12 MR. DUNN: I was confused
13 because I wasn't sure what it was part of.
14 My question has been answered.
15 Let's get -- go on with the
16 cross-examination.
17 Q By the way, in your testimony
18 concerning utilities at the last meeting, did that
19 testimony include your views concerning the
20 utilities that will subserve the banana building?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, the surface water -- surface
23 water quality datum that your planner used in
24 writing up the environmental assessment, Section
25 3.7, "Surface Water Quality," will you get those
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 documents out for me?
2 A Can I see the section you are
3 referring to?
4 Q 3.7.
5 Here we go.
6 A I will make it quick.
7 That's easier as it gets --
8 Q It's what?
9 A There is nothing to get.
10 Q There is nothing to get?
11 A Right. The plans show there is no
12 surface water existing at the banana building.
13 There is a writeup that covers --
14 Q See if I understand this.
15 You are telling me that there is no surface
16 water by the banana building?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Now, maybe I am a little simplistic,
19 but isn't surface water water that is on the
20 surface?
21 A Correct.
22 Q And is there some special
23 despensation to the banana building so that when
24 it rains none of the rain gets on the surface
25 around the banana building?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A No.
2 Q Is that what you are telling me?
3 A No. No.
4 Q So the banana building does have
5 surface water?
6 A It rains on the banana building,
7 yes.
8 Q Well, obviously, when the sun is out
9 you don't get any surface water falling on the
10 ground. Right?
11 A Under those conditions, right.
12 Q So there is no datum that you used,
13 is that right, concerning surface water?
14 A I have to see the section again, not
15 just the name of the section, I have to see the
16 paragraph that you are referring to. I don't have
17 that with me.
18 Q I take it that when you said -- I am
19 going to give it to you -- be patient with me,
20 please -- that when you said that you had all of
21 your files dealing with utilities, one of the
22 exceptions was your Environmental Impact
23 Statement, which deals with utilities?
24 MR. KIENZ: I object.
25 That's filed. It's on the record.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 That's just badgering the witness.
2 It's an inappropriate question.
3 Q Do you have your Environmental
4 Impact Statement, which contains references to the
5 utilities, do you have it here in the documents
6 which you brought?
7 A No.
8 Q I would like to let you use my copy.
9 A Thank you.
10 Q Let me interrupt you for half a
11 second. Maybe we can short circuit this.
12 Let me pose this question to you: Is there
13 going to be someone from your office who is going
14 to, at sometime in this proceeding, testify
15 concerning the Environmental Impact Statement of
16 August of 1999 prepared by your office?
17 A For the banana building?
18 MR. KIENZ: I will answer that.
19 The answer is, no, not during this
20 proceeding.
21 MR. SEGRETO: Then I am going to
22 press on, and when I get the man who wrote
23 it, I am going to ask him in a question.
24 You can't put me in a position where
25 there is a document, which is part of this
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 application, and the applicant tells me he
2 is not going to have anyone coming in and
3 testify concerning it.
4 MR. KIENZ: Let's try again with
5 clarity.
6 There is a second application that
7 has been filed. That application involves
8 a site plan application for the banana
9 building.
10 One of the requirements of this
11 municipality's ordinance is to file various
12 documents. There is a whole box filed.
13 Mr. Segreto knows about that.
14 The box is color-coded, as are all
15 the boxes that have been provided to not
16 only board members but also the board's
17 professionals. He knows it's a separate
18 application.
19 MR. DUNN: We don't need to
20 characterize what Mr. Segreto knows or
21 doesn't know, but I know that there is a
22 separate application pending for the banana
23 building.
24 My question to you is, as far as the
25 Environmental Impact Statements are
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 concerned, with respect to this
2 application, do you intend to offer this
3 Environmental Impact Statement as evidence
4 in this case?
5 MR. KIENZ: No.
6 If we had it it would have been in
7 this box.
8 MR. SEGRETO: If I can just comment
9 out loud.
10 I have a recollection of this
11 attorney for this board having pointed out
12 the section of the ordinance which requires
13 for a planned unit development there must
14 be an Environmental Impact Statement for
15 every component of it, and it is my
16 understanding that they are asking in the
17 preliminary site plan application -- the
18 planned development application, from what
19 I see, the banana building is an integral
20 component of it.
21 MR. DUNN: They are not offering
22 that Environmental Impact Statement for
23 purposes of this application.
24 MR. SEGRETO: Why was it filed with
25 the board?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: It was filed with the
2 board, Mr. Segreto, because the board
3 granted approval, as you know, to a planned
4 development that included the banana
5 building. That matter is presently before
6 Judge McLaughlan.
7 The applicant was given the right
8 under that approval to apply for certain
9 site plan approvals, and one of the
10 conditions of that previous resolution was
11 that Environmental Impact Statement be
12 filed in connection with each final site
13 plan approval.
14 MR. SEGRETO: Has that site plan
15 application for the banana building been
16 bifurcated?
17 MR. DUNN: That site plan
18 application has not been heard by this
19 board, and Mr. Kienz can speak to whether
20 the banana building is part of this
21 application and, if so, whether he is going
22 to rely on that document.
23 MR. SEGRETO: Let us simply have
24 the attorney for the applicant tell us in
25 clear uncomplicated language whether or not
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 the banana building is a part of any aspect
2 of the present application of which this is
3 one of the hearings.
4 MR. KIENZ: I can't answer that
5 because it's not a clear question.
6 Here is the answer that I think
7 everyone needs to hear: There is a planned
8 development application pending before the
9 board. It involves the entire Weehawken
10 waterfront. The banana building is
11 contained within that.
12 Yes, it is, as Mr. Dunn correctly
13 stated, there is a separate application for
14 the banana building seeking preliminary
15 site plan approval, and it's our opinion
16 that, based upon this municipality's
17 ordinance, when you file for the site plan,
18 you also put it under the auspices of the
19 planned development also, as Mr. Dunn
20 correctly stated, that application has been
21 filed.
22 It is not being heard by the board
23 at this time, but, sure, the banana
24 building is, obviously, a part of the
25 planned development, but not its site plan
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 at this time. It's on file, and we are
2 waiting for it to be heard.
3 MR. DUNN: You are not offering
4 this document in connection with this
5 application that's presently pending before
6 the board.
7 MR. KIENZ: That's correct, Mr.
8 Dunn.
9 That's why my statement was it was
10 not in the boxes that we have very
11 carefully prepared so there would be no
12 confusion by anyone as to what this
13 application was versus what other
14 applications are, and they are even all
15 colored-coded to try to make it easy.
16 Q Mr. Lanza, you are still there?
17 Mr. Lanza, part of the utility plan that
18 you developed for this application, does it
19 include the utilities for the banana building?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did you include -- yes -- did you
22 include the -- in your calculation of the amount
23 of gallons per day the sanitary sewage that will
24 be generated by this application, the sewage from
25 the banana building?
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you include in your calculations
3 of all water consumption -- the potable water
4 consumption needs for this project, the water
5 consumption needs of the banana building?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And, I take it, that your utility
8 testimony that you gave last time on direct
9 includes the utilities that will subserve and
10 support the banana building?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Thus your testimony that you have on
13 direct deals with the utility aspect of the banana
14 building. Right?
15 A An aspect of it, yes, not the
16 details of it, not the connection points for it.
17 Q And you submitted an Environmental
18 Impact Statement which deals with the utilities
19 for the banana building. Right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that's the one I have been
22 asking you questions about. Right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And I will ask you now, once again,
25 show me the parts of your file that your planner,
Lanza - Cross - Segreto

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