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WEEHAWKEN PLANNING BOARD HEARING
DECEMBER 2, 1999
FULL TRANSCRIPT
PAGES 151 TO 177

(end of transcript)

Witness Geoffrey Robert Lanza
Utilities & Engineering Expert
Cross Examination by the Public & James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on December 2nd, 1999.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken   into 4 different web pages.

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151
1 deep there. The street heights are going
2 to go down maybe five or six feet deep
3 footings to handle these types of poles.
4 This all will have to be approved by
5 the Port Authority, anything we do over the
6 tunnel, anyway. We have discussed it with
7 them. They have given us some guidelines
8 on what is permissible and what we should
9 be cautious of, and street lights don't
10 even come close to an issue.
11 MS. WADAIA: That's not a problem?
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 MS. WADAIA: I am a little
14 concerned because the whole -- most of the
15 site is going to be capped because there
16 are so many contaminants on the soil and
17 certain of the contaminants tend to leach
18 up through the capping, and then with the
19 water runoff, it will then put the
20 contaminants into the river, and I am
21 wondering, do you have drainage control
22 devices that will collect and appropriately
23 dispose of the contaminated water?
24 THE WITNESS: I object.
25 MR. KIENZ: I think you have to
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
152
1 help her a little bit with the question.
2 THE WITNESS: That's not my area of
3 expertise, about the migration of
4 contaminants through the soil. I don't
5 know that they do that. I would be
6 guessing which contaminants do what in
7 which direction. I don't think they do
8 that.
9 MS. WADAIA: Assuming -- I know,
10 for instance, that chromium leaches up.
11 THE WITNESS: I have learned that,
12 not through an impermeable liner. That's
13 why a liner would be impermeable in the
14 areas of the chromium.
15 MR. KIENZ: Under the prior
16 testimony I think Mr. Friedman talked about
17 that, and that's also, quite frankly,
18 something that's part of the brownfields
19 that he talked about and something the DEP
20 will be looking at.
21 MR. SEGRETO: Is that an objection
22 to the latest question?
23 MR. KIENZ: I am trying to help.
24 I am trying to help.
25 MR. DUNN: Well, Mr. Segreto,
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
153
1 when you are not here we conduct things
2 much more informally than when you are
3 cross-examining, and what I was about to
4 say, Ms. Wadaia, I know that Mr. Friedman
5 is coming back. He really seems to be the
6 person who can tell us, he or Mr. Campion,
7 who is the board's expert, would be able to
8 explain that fully, and we would permit you
9 -- we will note it on the record that we
10 will permit you defer your questions until
11 that time.
12 Then if you have further questions
13 of Mr. Lanza --
14 MS. WADAIA: I have one more
15 question.
16 THE WITNESS: Sure.
17 MS. WADAIA: And that's are you
18 going to -- I don't know if this falls
19 under "utilities," but you are an engineer,
20 are you going to install any vents
21 throughout the site, because if you cover
22 all of these contaminated materials with a
23 cap, then methane and other gases tend to
24 gather underneath the cap and the cap could
25 explode.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
154
1 Are you going to have any gas
2 control systems?
3 Is that an engineering question?
4 MR. KIENZ: Are you able to
5 answer that?
6 THE WITNESS: I can say we are not
7 going to have any. I know we are not going
8 to generate methane. That's as far as I
9 can go. There won't be any vents, but Mr.
10 Friedman would be able to tell you why. I
11 don't know.
12 MR. KIENZ: If you can't answer
13 it, just say.
14 MS. WADAIA: So that's another
15 question for Mr. Friedman.
16 MR. GOULD: Right.
17 MS. WADAIA: He is going to come
18 back?
19 MR. DUNN: He will be back.
20 THE WITNESS: He will be back, yes.
21 I don't know when exactly, but he will be
22 back.
23 MS. WADAIA: Okay. Thank you.
24 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
25 Okay. Any other members of the
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1 public have any questions for Mr. Lanza?
2 Okay. All right.
3 MR. GOULD: We have 25 minutes
4 left. It's 25 minutes.
5 Would you like to start your next
6 presentation or would you like to hold that
7 until the next meeting?
8 MR. DUNN: The next presentation
9 is the planner.
10 MR. GOULD: Is there a problem
11 back there?
12 MR. DUNN: Is anybody hurt?
13 MR. TURNER: Who did that?
14 MR. GOULD: I will ask again,
15 would you like to start the presentation at
16 this point or would you like --
17 MR. KIENZ: I think -- I don't
18 think that would be the appropriate way to
19 proceed.
20 The next presentation is the planner
21 going through all the planning testimony
22 that's needed, as I had stated in my
23 letter. I think it would be better to
24 defer that to the next time.
25 MR. GOULD: I think our next
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1 meeting is --
2 MR. DUNN: Next Thursday.
3 MR. GOULD: -- is next Thursday,
4 which would be the ninth at seven o'clock.
5 MR. KIENZ: That's correct.
6 Mr. Chairman, now a couple of
7 things.
8 In order to try and help this
9 process move along, I thought we had an
10 agreement, and it would still be my
11 suggestion we abide by the agreement that
12 was in the record the last time.
13 If, in fact, the records of our
14 planning consultant, which is the Martin
15 Organization, need to be examined, they
16 should be done -- that should be done prior
17 to the meeting so we don't waste all the
18 time that we did with people searching for
19 documents or anything else. If it's in a
20 document, let's have the document there so
21 it's all there, because it was not
22 efficacious tonight in any way, shape or
23 form.
24 Now, Mr. Lanza is finished with his
25 testimony. I want to make it clear Mr.
157
1 Lanza will be appearing in response to your
2 engineer's comments, but it's my
3 understanding there is no more direct. We
4 are not producing any more records. That
5 chance was had. It was missed.
6 MR. DUNN: So you are making the
7 proffer of the records of the planning
8 consultant between now and the next
9 meeting. Is that correct?
10 MR. KIENZ: Absolutely, Mr. Dunn.
11 MR. SEGRETO: I will accept the
12 proffer.
13 MR. DUNN: Do you wish to
14 inspect, Mr. Segreto, in lieu of a
15 subpoena?
16 MR. SEGRETO: No, I will make a
17 proffer what I want is a copy of every
18 document of the planner's file, and I will
19 pay for it. When can I have it so I can
20 prepare for the next meeting?
21 I am starting a lengthy land use
22 trial in Union County on Monday morning. I
23 am not going to have time running down
24 looking at the planner.
25 If you can get that -- send the
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1 documents to me, if you get that set of
2 documents to me by the beginning of the
3 week, I will make sure that one night
4 before next Thursday, when I would
5 certainly be here, I will have digested
6 them.
7 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I
8 certainly respect the fact that we are all
9 busy attorneys. I also know Mr. Segreto
10 has some very capable legal staff in his
11 office. I am not going to take the
12 responsibility for doing that.
13 If his office -- if he would like to
14 send a representative down from his office
15 to review documents at the Martin
16 organization office, so be it, we will be
17 happy to do it, just as we did with
18 EcolSciences. I think that's the fair way
19 to proceed.
20 I don't want to get into any
21 situation -- I am trying to be cooperative.
22 I am not going to put that responsibility
23 on my people either. Go down and review
24 the documents. We will deal with it in
25 that way. He has other attorneys that are
159
1 very, very capable. I have seen them in
2 practice.
3 MR. SEGRETO: If counsel will not
4 agree to consentually providing me with a
5 set, I now make a formal request of the
6 board that a subpoena be issued requiring
7 the planner to bring at the next meeting,
8 the entire file, the planning file.
9 MR. DUNN: So you are rejecting
10 the opportunity to inspect the documents?
11 MR. SEGRETO: I want to pay to have
12 copies of the entire documents. I am not
13 rejecting anything.
14 MR. KIENZ: I want them to go
15 down and tell us what documents they are
16 looking for.
17 MR. SEGRETO: I want every piece of
18 paper in the planner's file. How
19 complicated is that?
20 MR. DUNN: Every relevant piece
21 of paper, is that it?
22 MR. SEGRETO: No. I want
23 everything that is in the planner's file
24 that deals with this. I wouldn't think
25 that relevant documents unrelated to this
160
1 application would be in the file.
2 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, you are
3 an architect, and you know that there are
4 sketches, you know that there are all kinds
5 of things, there is the master plan, local
6 site plan ordinance.
7 I don't know what's there.
8 MR. SEGRETO: I don't want copies
9 of the master plan. I have my own. I
10 don't want copies of the site plan
11 ordinance. I don't want copies --
12 MR. KIENZ: Can I finish, Mr.
13 Segreto?
14 Thank you.
15 MR. SEGRETO: Yes. Go ahead.
16 MR. KIENZ: What I am suggesting
17 is you know that sketches are done in
18 preparation for plans, you know that all
19 kinds of documents in a planner's and in an
20 architect's office are prepared.
21 I don't want to get caught shame on
22 me for allowing something like that to
23 happen.
24 What I am saying is, if you would
25 like to go down and examine, we will then
161
1 bring up the documents that you want just
2 as we did with EcolSciences. We had done
3 it this way. We would have shown up with
4 another 18 boxes, and I am trying to be
5 judicious, and I am trying to be fair to
6 everyone, and I am opening it up, and I am
7 saying go down and examine anything you
8 want.
9 You tell us what you want. We will
10 be happy to bring it. We will have it out
11 on the table. They can go around the table
12 and figure it out. I don't want that
13 responsibility, and I don't want my
14 professionals to have that kind of
15 responsibility.
16 MR. SEGRETO: There is no
17 responsibility at all.
18 MR. KIENZ: Of course, it is -- I
19 am sorry -- I got to let you finish now.
20 MR. SEGRETO: I do not want the
21 zoning ordinance, the site plan ordinance,
22 any other ordinances of the town. I don't
23 want the master plan. I don't want the
24 filed plans. I have all of those.
25 Everything else in the file of the
162
1 planner dealing with this property and this
2 application I want a copy of. I will pay
3 for it.
4 MR. DUNN: You want all sketches
5 of preliminary and all kinds of sketches
6 that have been done prior to this?
7 MR. SEGRETO: What kind of sketches
8 are you talking about?
9 MR. DUNN: We are talking about
10 planning testimony. We are talking about a
11 planner that has -- has submitted
12 architectural plans.
13 MR. SEGRETO: A planner has
14 submitted architectural plans.
15 MR. DUNN: We expect to see --
16 we expect to see some plans, and those
17 things are developed in terms of
18 preliminary sketches, and I think it's
19 unreasonable for you to ask that. I don't
20 think they are relevant.
21 I think they are work product of the
22 architect and the client, and I don't think
23 it's relevant for you to ask for design
24 development documents that may have been
25 done by this architect, so when you ask for
163
1 everything that's in their file, you make
2 it a very difficult thing for people to
3 judge what exactly it is that you are going
4 to cross-examine about.
5 MR. SEGRETO: The cases --
6 MR. KIENZ: I think it's -- I
7 think it's unreasonable for you to ask for
8 everything in their file.
9 MR. SEGRETO: The cases explicitly
10 hold that the cross-examining attorney has
11 a right to see the entire file of the
12 expert who is going to testify.
13 MR. KIENZ: Absolutely, and we
14 are agreeing to provide that, and you can
15 come down with me on Monday.
16 MR. SEGRETO: I want to pay for it.
17 He wants to constrain me to send someone
18 down. I want to pay for it. We will even
19 pay for the postage. I will send a
20 messenger down to pick up the copies when
21 you have them done.
22 I am the most accommodating genial
23 person in the world, but I am entitled.
24 MR. DUNN: You could have fooled
25 me.
164
1 MR. SEGRETO: Could have fooled
2 you?
3 Maybe because I get provoked
4 sometimes to act out of character.
5 I am not looking at the board
6 attorney intentionally when I say that, but
7 I am entitled to it.
8 Come on. What are we talking about?
9 You want to create an appealable issue, go
10 ahead, deny it. What do you want from me?
11 I am very frank with you. You want to
12 create an appealable issue?
13 MR. GOULD: Let's hear what Mr.
14 Kienz has to say.
15 MR. KIENZ: I am a professional
16 planner, too, unlicensed albeit, and I know
17 what goes into documents, and all I want to
18 say is, my guess is -- without having
19 talked to my clients, my guess is that
20 there are probably hundreds of pages of
21 documents.
22 It would probably take a
23 considerable amount of time and a
24 considerable amount of Mr. Segreto's
25 client's money to reproduce everything that
165
1 he is talking about, because the people
2 that will be testifying, just to remind Mr.
3 Segreto, are licensed architects and
4 licensed planners in the State of New
5 Jersey. I am --
6 MR. SEGRETO: I only want --
7 MR. KIENZ: Can I finish?
8 MR. SEGRETO: I can short-circuit
9 --
10 MR. KIENZ: I don't need to be
11 short-circuited. I want to say something.
12 MR. SEGRETO: All right.
13 MR. KIENZ: What I am offering is
14 to come on down, take a look. We will
15 bring whatever you select. You don't have
16 to go to the cost of copying, but to have
17 someone go into an architect/planner's
18 office and say, "Just give me everything,"
19 is a big problem.
20 MR. DUNN: The procedure worked
21 very well with Mr. Friedman. It worked
22 very well with Mr. Friedman, and I am
23 looking for ways to make this something
24 that is -- reduces the delay, A, because
25 this board has time constraints, and I
166
1 don't know why the suggestion is not -- why
2 you are not making the suggestion, Mr.
3 Segreto.
4 MR. GOULD: Hold on. Hold on.
5 MR. DUNN: They have offered to
6 allow you to see the documents and to bring
7 everything that you need.
8 MR. SEGRETO: Because I am going to
9 start a trial before Judge Pisansky on
10 Monday, and I have a backup trial before
11 Judge Reisner.
12 MR. DUNN: You had a month --
13 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry.
14 MR. DUNN: You had a month
15 between November 4th and December 2nd to do
16 this. That was what our agreement was at
17 the last meeting, and you didn't do it.
18 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Dunn, sometimes I
19 think you ought to be on this side of the
20 railing. I say that in all respect. You
21 sound more like an adversary than an
22 attorney for the board.
23 I have made a request. Let the
24 chairman make a ruling.
25 If you will not -- if he will not
167
1 furnish me with a copy of all the planning
2 documents, if the planner is also an
3 architect and she is going to testify as an
4 architect --
5 MR. KIENZ: She was qualified the
6 last time. I am just reminding you.
7 MR. SEGRETO: Is she going to
8 testify as a planner?
9 MR. KIENZ: She was going to
10 testify that she was qualified both as a
11 planner and an architect.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Is that going to be
13 next week?
14 MR. KIENZ: Yes, sir.
15 MR. SEGRETO: Then I want the file
16 --
17 MR. KIENZ: Come on down.
18 MR. SEGRETO: -- photocopied. If
19 you will not do it, I want a subpoena
20 requiring her to bring it here. It's not
21 complicated.
22 If counsel won't do it and if the
23 board won't issue the subpoena to me, I
24 guess I will do my cross-examination
25 without having had the opportunity to
168
1 cross-examine the witness concerning the
2 contents of the file.
3 If both of you feel comfortable
4 about supporting that eventuality, you go
5 right ahead and make your ruling. I am not
6 acting surreptitiously. I am not trying to
7 massage an appealable issue.
8 I want to look at it because I am
9 entitled to do it. I am entitled to have
10 access to it while I cross-examine.
11 If you don't give me that, I will at
12 the appropriate time contend there has been
13 a denial of fundamental due process, and I
14 will cite the cases to support me, and
15 maybe I am wrong, maybe I am wrong, maybe
16 you are right, maybe I don't have a right
17 to have the file brought here, maybe I
18 don't have a right to request that in lieu
19 of the subpoena that he will give me a copy
20 of it, but I don't think I am wrong.
21 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, may I
22 ask, you mentioned at one of the earlier
23 meetings of the board that there was a
24 ruling by Judge Harris on this issue. I
25 know you haven't supplied it to me. Can
169
1 you please supply it to me?
2 MR. SEGRETO: My goodness, yes, I
3 will get the transcript for you.
4 It is dismaying to me that for the
5 years that you have been serving as a
6 planning board attorney you don't
7 understand and don't know the decided cases
8 by the Supreme Court and the Appellate
9 Division, and I commanded your attention by
10 letter to you today with cites of cases.
11 MR. DUNN: I know the decided
12 cases by the Supreme Court and the
13 Appellate Division in land use matters, and
14 I am telling you that I haven't found one
15 in a land use matter that deals with this
16 specific issue, and I don't think you have
17 cited one to me, except I didn't get your
18 brief until four o'clock, so --
19 MR. SEGRETO: What we have here are
20 two different attorneys who read,
21 apparently, different cases, and the dust
22 will eventually settle because a man in a
23 black robe will decide who is right.
24 MR. KIENZ: I resent that
25 statement, but beyond that, what I am
170
1 offering here is a library card to the
2 office.
3 I think we are being more than fair
4 and ready, willing and able to do it Monday
5 -- I am sorry -- we are ready, able to do
6 it tomorrow morning, Monday morning,
7 Tuesday morning, or Wednesday morning.
8 MR. SEGRETO: I have two trials
9 next week.
10 MR. DUNN: How long do you
11 expect the testimony to take?
12 MR. KIENZ: I expect the
13 testimony to take no longer than an hour
14 and a half.
15 We wanted -- we wanted to get that
16 testimony in. We lost a lot of time
17 tonight on the cross.
18 MR. SEGRETO: It's simple. If it's
19 too much trouble to make the copies, bring
20 the file next Thursday. It's not
21 complicated. I am the easiest person in
22 the world to get along with. Bring the
23 file next Thursday.
24 MR. KIENZ: I want to know why
25 Mr. Segreto can't send one of his
171
1 able-minded, able-bodied associates down to
2 the Martin organization to do the
3 investigation.
4 MR. DUNN: Mr. Kienz, the Land
5 Use Law specifically provides for the
6 issuance of a subpoena, and I think that
7 the board needs to issue a subpoena for the
8 documents. The Martin organization can do
9 what Mr. Lanza did tonight.
10 I think the fact that Mr. Segreto,
11 apparently, has other matters that require
12 his attendance, we will have to take that
13 into account at some point. I mean, we
14 cannot -- we cannot continue to delay this,
15 but I think that we are going to have to
16 issue a subpoena for the planning
17 documents.
18 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Dunn, I want to
19 indicate something.
20 This is making me and, in turn, my
21 client looking like the bad guys.
22 I haven't said that we would not
23 produce documents. All I asked, as was
24 stated earlier --
25 MR. DUNN: Well --
172
1 MR. KIENZ: Can I just finish?
2 When we dealt with EcolSciences we
3 had a process. It worked very well. It
4 was much more efficient than what we saw
5 tonight, and we are getting into some very,
6 very bad habits here, because we had the
7 month. We are losing time.
8 I have done everything I can to
9 provide the opportunity to examine. There
10 are other attorneys there. We are very,
11 very cooperative.
12 MR. DUNN: The man in the black
13 robe will review the entire transcript. We
14 know the man in the black robe is going to
15 look at this. They will look at the entire
16 transcript, and they will make -- the man
17 in the black robe will make a judgment or
18 woman in the black robe will make a
19 judgment as to -- as to the conduct of the
20 parties in this case.
21 If you are willing to voluntarily
22 produce the documents, then we won't issue
23 a subpoena.
24 All right. Will you draw the
25 subpoena?
173
1 MR. SEGRETO: What is the name of
2 the planner?
3 MR. KIENZ: The organization is
4 the Martin Architectural Group.
5 MR. SEGRETO: Say it again.
6 MR. KIENZ: The Martin
7 Architectural Group.
8 MR. SEGRETO: One has to issue a
9 subpoena to a person, not a group.
10 MR. KIENZ: They are the group.
11 MR. SEGRETO: The person who is
12 going to be --
13 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Segreto, let me
14 finish.
15 MR. DUNN: The witness is Laura
16 Staines.
17 MR. KIENZ: It's going to be
18 Laura Staines.
19 MR. SEGRETO: Laura, her last name?
20 MR. KIENZ: Staines, S-t-a-i-n-e-s.
21 MR. SEGRETO: Will you accept
22 service of the subpoena on behalf of the
23 witness?
24 MR. KIENZ: The board will deal
25 -- Mr. Dunn and I will deal with that, the
174
1 subpoena coming from the board. You can't
2 issue any subpoena. It has to come from
3 the board under Section 10 of the Municipal
4 Land Use Act. I am going to do it. I want
5 the subpoena in the file.
6 MR. DUNN: All right. You will
7 accept service of it when it's signed by
8 the board?
9 MR. KIENZ: Of course.
10 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, will you
11 accept the subpoena that's signed by me in
12 lieu of the chairman?
13 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry?
14 MR. DUNN: Will you accept the
15 subpoena that's signed by me in lieu of the
16 chairman? The chairman, as are all members
17 of the board, are full-time employees
18 elsewhere.
19 MR. SEGRETO: I have no problem
20 with that.
21 Forgive me, the only thing --
22 MR. DUNN: Please submit it to
23 me.
24 MR. SEGRETO: As long as counsel
25 agrees, because I just had a phenomenon up
175
1 in another town --
2 MR. DUNN: Counsel agrees.
3 MR. SEGRETO: Where the secretary
4 signed it and the attorney for the
5 applicant refused to produce saying the
6 secretary was not the authorized person, as
7 long as you will not challenge the efficacy
8 of the subpoena signed by Mr. Dunn.
9 MR. KIENZ: I am dealing with Mr.
10 Dunn and the board.
11 MR. SEGRETO: Okay.
12 MR. DUNN: Anything else?
13 MR. GOULD: Okay.
14 MR. DUNN: During the breaks,
15 Mr. Segreto, did you have an opportunity to
16 consult with your clients about whether
17 they would meet off the record with the
18 mayor and the consultants -- I am sorry --
19 you haven't had a break.
20 MR. TURNER: Do you want a break?
21 MR. SEGRETO: I will talk to them.
22 Let us talk for a couple of minutes.
23 MR. DUNN: We are not going to
24 stay around for it. You can call me and
25 let me know, and I will accept your
176
1 representation by telephone.
2 MR. SEGRETO: Okay.
3 MR. KIENZ: Just before we go, we
4 have to carry it to a date certain on the
5 record, please.
6 MR. DUNN: A motion to adjourn
7 to December 9, 1999 at seven PM without
8 further notice.
9 MR. ROSAS: So moved.
10 MR. BARSA: So moved.
11 MR. CABRERA: Second.
12 THE CLERK: Mr. Rosas.
13 MR. ROSAS: Yes.
14 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
15 MR. BARSA: Yes.
16 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
17 MR. TURNER: Yes.
18 THE CLERK: Mr. Gould.
19 MR. GOULD: Yes.
20 THE CLERK: Mr. Cabrera.
21 MR. CABRERA: Yes.
22 THE CLERK: Ms. Kravitz.
23 MS. KRAVITZ: Yes.
24 MR. KIENZ: I just want to thank
25 the board for it's time.
177
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 I, PHILIP A. FISHMAN, a Notary Public and
4 Certified Shorthand Reporter for the State of New
5 Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a
6 true and accurate transcript of the hearing as
7 taken stenographically by and before me at the
8 time, place and on the date hereinbefore set
9 forth.
10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a
11 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of
12 any of the parties to this action and that I am
13 neither a relative nor employee of such attorney
14 or counsel, and that I am not financially
15 interested in the action.
16
17
18 Dated _______________ ________________________
19 PHILIP A. FISHMAN, C.S.R.
A Notary Public of the
20 State of New Jersey
21
22
23
24
25

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