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WEEHAWKEN PLANNING BOARD HEARING
DECEMBER 2, 1999
FULL TRANSCRIPT
PAGES 101 TO 150

Witness Geoffrey Robert Lanza
Utilities & Engineering Expert
Cross Examination by the Public & James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on December 2nd, 1999.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken into 4 different web pages.

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101
1 Jamestown Ferry.
2 Q Not much, is it?
3 A It's not much.
4 Q And with that little that is there
5 already, there is not sufficient conduit capacity
6 in the receiving end of the system to not require
7 bypass sanitary sewage into the river. Isn't that
8 so?
9 A Yes, there is bypass to the river.
10 It's from the conduits to the plant. It's not the
11 plant, though.
12 Q I understand, but your sewage is
13 going to have to get to the plant. Right?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And there are circumstances where
16 there is a certain quantity of precipitation in
17 which your sewage isn't going to get into the
18 plant, it's going to get by-passed?
19 A No.
20 Q That's not so?
21 A No, it goes right to the plant.
22 There are problems with the lines that go to the
23 plant in the areas of Park Avenue and Willow, and
24 there are siphons that go underneath the tracks
25 that go to the plant that don't have the capacity
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102
1 any longer to get sewage directly to the plant.
2 The plant has tons of capacity. If you can
3 get to the plant, your sewage will never get out
4 to the Hudson River. It will get treated.
5 If it can't get to the plant and it rains,
6 you could have --
7 Q None of the conduit infrastructure
8 from your pumping station, which is going to serve
9 Port Imperial South up until the actual treatment
10 plant, that there are no conduit incidents of
11 discharge into the river.
12 Is that what you are telling me?
13 A From our new pump station and our
14 project to the plant, there will be no overflows
15 to the Hudson River.
16 Q Where are the overflows?
17 A There are four or five of them.
18 MR. KIENZ: Can you make that
19 more specific? On the property?
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 MR. DUNN: I am trying to
22 determine the relevancy of that question,
23 Mr. Segreto.
24 Are you talking about on the
25 property or are you talking about anywhere
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1 in the world?
2 MR. SEGRETO: Anywhere in
3 connection with the sanitary sewage that
4 originates from several sources and ends up
5 in the treatment plant.
6 Q What did you say, it was in Hoboken?
7 A It's in Hoboken, yes.
8 I mentioned last time --
9 Q Do you know where the points of
10 overflow are?
11 A I know where a couple of them are.
12 Q Where are they?
13 A I probably know where all of them
14 are. I have to look at a map of the sewer system.
15 Q Are you telling me that there is
16 going to be a sanitary sewer conduit, which is
17 going to discretely accept Weehawken sanitary
18 sewage flow, and it's going to go right into the
19 Hoboken plant and go right into the primary and
20 the secondary treatment modes, and there is never
21 going to be a point at which any of it is going to
22 have to be bypassed into the river?
23 A That's correct.
24 Q Do you have anything -- who is the
25 sewerage authority down in Hoboken?
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104
1 A It's called the North Hudson
2 Sewerage Authority.
3 Q It's a regional one. Right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, do you have something from them
6 in which -- that's in your file which indicates
7 that there will be no sanitary overflow discharges
8 implicated by your proposed additional flows?
9 A I have a letter that says they have
10 plenty of capacity to take our flows.
11 Q We all understand that.
12 A That's what I have.
13 Q And the fact that they have the
14 capacity still requires them to be frequently
15 bypassed?
16 A No.
17 Q Are you telling me that the North
18 Hudson facility never bypasses?
19 A The lines that go to the treatment
20 plant bypass.
21 Q The lines bypass?
22 A Yes, they do.
23 I know I mentioned last time --
24 Q And which lines --
25 MR. DUNN: Let the witness
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1 finish the answer, please, Mr. Segreto.
2 THE WITNESS: There are two of
3 them. There are two overflows I mentioned
4 last time that pass through our state. One
5 is a large one, and one is a fairly small
6 one.
7 They take flows when there are heavy
8 rains up on Pershing Road, the neighborhood
9 up on Pershing and drop it down into the
10 Hudson River through our site.
11 One is near Arthur's Landing, and
12 one is near where the new ferry terminal is
13 going to be.
14 Q That overflows, implicates your
15 site?
16 A It goes through our site. We are
17 not tying into that. We are just letting it pass
18 through our site.
19 Q Now, with regard to the live, the
20 existing line that you are going to go into to get
21 to Hoboken -- are you going to go into a line to
22 go to Hoboken?
23 A We are building a new line to
24 Hoboken.
25 Q All the way to Hoboken?
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106
1 A All the way to Hoboken, yes.
2 Q What's the design capacity? What's
3 your peak-hour GP gallonage?
4 A Gallons per day?
5 Q No, gallons per peak hour.
6 You know there is such a thing as a peak
7 hour?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You understand that there is not an
10 even constant flow for 24 hours a day into a line?
11 A Sure.
12 Q And there are going to be peak hours
13 when the 700,000 square -- or gallons?
14 A Right.
15 Q What is the peak hour, by the way?
16 A You are going to have a peak in the
17 morning, and you are going to have one later in
18 the evening.
19 Q Did you do an analysis?
20 A It didn't factor into our design.
21 Q I am sorry?
22 A It didn't factor into our design to
23 do that.
24 Q I know, but when you put your design
25 the design is what you do to meet the
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107
1 exigencies of your calculation. Do you have your
2 calculations here?
3 A Didn't we just do -- I thought I
4 gave you that copy of the stuff, that report, that
5 has the calculations for the flows to get the
6 700,000 gallons per day.
7 Q I am not talking about -- I am
8 talking about --
9 A It's a very simple calculation.
10 That's all it is.
11 Q Your calculations for peak-hour flow
12 --
13 A No, I don't have it.
14 Q -- did you do them?
15 A No.
16 Q Isn't it relevant?
17 A It's not required by the DEP to do
18 it that way, what you are saying.
19 Q Are you telling me that you designed
20 a system on the assumption that the 714,000 would
21 be coming into the system in equal quantities for
22 each of the 24 hours?
23 A No, but the factors the DEP has, you
24 use, account for that situation to some degree.
25 Q The fluctuations, you are talking
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1 about a fluctuation?
2 A Right.
3 Q There are certain hours where there
4 is a quantity of flow which is hardly measurable?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And there are other hours, such as
7 the evening supper hour and the morning breakfast
8 hour, where the flows are substantially higher
9 than any other time. Isn't that so?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And don't we have to know -- well,
12 let me back off.
13 This line that you have, this conduit that
14 you put together --
15 A Yes.
16 Q -- what's its capacity? Not per
17 day.
18 A I think I know what you are getting
19 at.
20 Q Not per day.
21 A The way you design a conveyance
22 system, you try to have it flowing half full.
23 Okay? We peak the flows. Then we have it flow
24 half full. It's almost a peaking factor of four.
25 Those calculations I have. I don't have
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1 those with me, though.
2 The pump station gets designed for twice
3 the average daily flow. That's in accordance with
4 DEP requirements.
5 Q Did you get any datum from the
6 treatment plant authority?
7 I know you keep telling us that they said
8 they have got capacity, 714,000 gallons per day,
9 but did you find out what peak capacity they have
10 and the relationship of what your peak flow is
11 going to be and relationship to their capacity to
12 receive it during the peak hours?
13 Did you do any analysis of that?
14 A To some degree we have, yes, the
15 plant has so much capacity.
16 Q Get it out. "To some degree," can
17 we have the papers here? Did you do that
18 analysis?
19 A I have the letter from the Sewerage
20 Authority which describes --
21 Q Does it explain anything about
22 peak-hour capacity?
23 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, he is
24 not letting him answer the question.
25 Q I am sorry.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
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1 A Let me get it.
2 Q Keep in mind I asked you if you did
3 an analysis.
4 A Mr. Segreto.
5 Q Yes.
6 A I have the letter dated October 27th
7 from Mr. Frederick Pocci, the Executive Director
8 of the Sewerage Authority. It's fairly short.
9 Dear Mr. Lanza: Pursuant to your request
10 --
11 MR. DUNN: Mr. Kienz, would you
12 want to mark that as an exhibit? I was
13 going to ask for it anyway.
14 MR. KIENZ: It's in the box, Mr.
15 Dunn. I believe it's in number -- in No.
16 -- Item No. 40 -- I am sorry -- 41. It's
17 correspondence from the North Hudson
18 Sewerage Authority.
19 MR. DUNN: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: "Pursuant to your
21 request, this letter will confirm that the
22 NHSA Wastewater Treatment Plant in Hoboken
23 has adequate capacity to accommodate the
24 entire Port Imperial South Development.
25 The plant has a permitted capacity of 22.8
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111
1 million gallons per day and currently
2 receives 12.5 million gallons per day. It
3 is our understanding that the flows from
4 the Port Imperial South Development will be
5 approximately 0.7 million gallons per day.
6 As we have been discussing the
7 conveyance system from Port Imperial to the
8 plant is in need of siginificant upgrades.
9 It is our understanding that the
10 infrastructure improvements for the
11 proposed development will bring the
12 conveyance system up to required capacity,
13 the details of which will be subject to
14 approval by NHSA."
15 Q Does it say anything about peak-hour
16 capacity?
17 A No, it doesn't. It talks about that
18 --
19 Q Did you do the -- an analysis of the
20 peak-hour capacity?
21 A I did not.
22 Q Now, isn't it true -- or let me
23 state it differently -- at about the time in
24 August of '99, was your office working with the
25 NJDEP to determine the optimum mix of structural
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1 water quality controls to be incorporated into
2 your stormwater management system?
3 A You mean with the Sewerage
4 Authority?
5 Q No, stormwater now. The Sewerage
6 Authority is different. That's a different kind
7 of utility, stormwater management.
8 MR. DUNN: I think --
9 A I misunderstood the question.
10 MR. DUNN: I think we are having
11 a little trouble following you.
12 You jumped -- I know you are allowed
13 to do this as cross-examination, but you
14 jumped from sewer -- sanitary sewage to
15 stormwater rather quickly. It kind of went
16 over my head, too.
17 MR. SEGRETO: I happen to be using
18 it in the same sequence as the
19 Environmental Impact Statement, so there is
20 a method to my incoherence.
21 MR. DUNN: I am not suggesting
22 there isn't.
23 MR. SEGRETO: I understand.
24 MR. DUNN: Let's make sure the
25 witness -- the last time we wasted a lot of
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1 time, you and the witness were talking
2 against each other and talking about
3 squirrels flying and things of that sort,
4 so let's just make sure the witness
5 understands.
6 MR. SEGRETO: Okay.
7 Q We are talking about stormwater
8 management. You understand that. Right?
9 A Now I do.
10 Q And is it true that your office in
11 1999 is working with NJDEP to determine the
12 optimum mix of structural water quality controls
13 to be incorporated into the Stormwater Management
14 System?
15 A Yes. I misunderstood you before. I
16 thought you said "NJSA" instead of "DEP."
17 Q Under your Stormwater Management
18 Plan that we asked you questions about, and I
19 suggested it only had three pages of text, did you
20 incorporate in that any determination of the
21 optimum mix of structural water quality controls?
22 A Yes, we have.
23 Like I explained last time, the hooded
24 inlets at the last outfalls at the river.
25 Q Tell me where in your Stormwater
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114
1 Management Plan, you refer to controls being
2 incorporated that will deal with the optimum mix
3 of structural water quality.
4 Show me what page it's on. There are only
5 four pages.
6 A Probably the last one.
7 Q Is it your testimony that it's in
8 there?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right. Let's move on.
11 The document itself will tell us whether
12 it's in there.
13 Now, is solid waste regarded as a utility?
14 A No.
15 Q How come the solid waste industry is
16 governed by the Board of Public Utilities?
17 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman --
18 MR. SEGRETO: Come on. What do you
19 want from me?
20 I happen to know that these things
21 are so. Obviously, solid waste is a
22 utility.
23 MR. DUNN: He hasn't testified
24 to solid waste.
25 MR. SEGRETO: The question is
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1 whether or not solid waste is a utility.
2 MR. DUNN: The man is not a
3 lawyer.
4 A I was just going to say --
5 MR. SEGRETO: He is an engineer.
6 Come on. An engineer doesn't know what a
7 utility is?
8 MR. DUNN: The question is
9 irrelevant and beyond the scope of his
10 direct examination.
11 Q Do you know whether or not the
12 Environmental Impact Statement deals with the
13 solid waste plan?
14 A I think it does.
15 Q Do you know if your office has done
16 any work on the solid waste plan for this
17 facility?
18 A Our office?
19 Q Yes.
20 A I don't believe we have.
21 Q Is there some other consulting firm
22 that is handling the solid waste plan?
23 MR. KIENZ: Beyond the scope of
24 the direct, Mr. Chairman. I object.
25 A I am not sure of the question.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
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1 MR. KIENZ: I object to the
2 question.
3 It's beyond the scope of the direct.
4 He testified to the public
5 utilities.
6 MR. DUNN: The objection is
7 sustained.
8 MR. SEGRETO: That's based on the
9 assumption that solid waste is not a public
10 utility, and, Mr. Dunn, both the statute
11 and NJAC explicitly say that solid waste is
12 a public utility.
13 Now, please, let's not play -- let's
14 not play cat and mouse with me.
15 How can you sustain an objection
16 that it has nothing to do with utilities
17 when the statute and the regulations say it
18 is?
19 MR. DUNN: Sustained as to
20 relevancy and beyond the scope of the
21 direct.
22 MR. SEGRETO: No, his direct
23 testimony dealt with the utility aspect of
24 this, and if he has not addressed an
25 integral public utility aspect, that's
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1 important to know.
2 MR. DUNN: You have ten minutes
3 left for your cross-examination.
4 MR. SEGRETO: Well, I understand.
5 Q Now, have you in the utility aspect
6 given any consideration to the water table on the
7 site?
8 A Like we discussed earlier, the water
9 table is six or seven feet below existing grade.
10 Q The question was, did you give
11 consideration in any of your studies involving
12 utilities to the water table?
13 MR. DUNN: That's a repetitious
14 question, but you can answer it.
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. Would you please get out
17 the documents that deal with your consideration of
18 the water table.
19 MR. DUNN: If there are no
20 documents --
21 MR. SEGRETO: Just tell us that.
22 MR. DUNN: -- just say so.
23 A I am sorry.
24 MR. DUNN: If there are no
25 documents just say so.
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1 THE WITNESS: I am not going to be
2 able to find anything with regard to that.
3 It doesn't have any impact with regard to
4 utilities.
5 Q What troubles me, I thought we had
6 all the utilities files on the table.
7 Somebody just handed you a brown satchel.
8 Do you have some of your utility files in
9 there, too?
10 A Just checking. I thought I had them
11 all.
12 Q Somebody gave you that one.
13 Why don't you check.
14 A Let me check.
15 Q See if there are some of your
16 utility files.
17 A I thought I pulled them all out
18 before. I will double check.
19 I have them all out.
20 Q By the way, do you know whether or
21 not this property is within the 100-year
22 floodplain of the Hudson River?
23 A Yes, I know that. It is.
24 Q And the FEMA map shows it. Right?
25 A Oh, yes.
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119
1 Q Do you have any document -- well,
2 first of all, do you think that the property being
3 within the 100-year floodplain of the Hudson River
4 is in any way relevant to the design of utilities?
5 A When we finish building this site,
6 most of the site will be raised above the 100-year
7 storm elevation.
8 Q Is it relevant?
9 A To a small degree.
10 Q Only a small degree?
11 A Yes.
12 Q By the way, DEP has regulations
13 dealing with waterfront permits of development,
14 don't they?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do you know whether or not
17 landscaping in waterfront development, under the
18 DEP regulations, requires meeting a 100-year flood
19 criteria?
20 A An interesting utility question.
21 MR. KIENZ: It's beyond the
22 scope. I don't understand what that has to
23 do with the direct.
24 I object.
25 MR. DUNN: Yes, sir.
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1 MR. SEGRETO: A 100-year flood --
2 100-year storm has to do with your plan?
3 You only designed for a 25-year storm.
4 Aren't you required to design for
5 the landscape portion of waterfront
6 development under DEP regulations for a
7 100-year storm?
8 MR. GOULD: Hold on.
9 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
10 I made it clear. He is coming back.
11 There is going to be testimony on
12 landscaping.
13 This is beyond what he testified to
14 at the time. This is just a waste.
15 MR. SEGRETO: The question has to
16 do with the Stormwater Management Plan,
17 which is designed for 25 years and not for
18 100, and I am asking him if there is a DEP
19 regulation of which he is aware, that
20 landscape development on a waterfront
21 development requires compliance with a
22 100-year storm.
23 MR. DUNN: That question is
24 permissible.
25 Q Do you know?
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121
1 A No, I am not aware of why you are
2 asking the question.
3 Q Now, there has been a series of
4 reports -- written reports submitted by the
5 board's planner, and there has been a series of
6 reports submitted by the board's engineer.
7 Have you reviewed them?
8 A Yes, I have.
9 Q Have you responded to them?
10 A Not in writing yet.
11 MR. KIENZ: I object.
12 I have no idea what reports are
13 being referred to.
14 MR. DUNN: In connection with
15 this application, Mr. Segreto, will you
16 represent to the board that there have been
17 reports written in connection with this
18 application?
19 MR. SEGRETO: Let me pose the
20 question to you.
21 Q Have there been any reports issued
22 by the engineer or the planner concerning this
23 application?
24 I am sorry.
25 A Was that to me?
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1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do any of them speak to the subject
4 of utilities?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Have you done any work to respond to
7 the issues raised by the engineer concerning
8 utilities?
9 A I am working on that now.
10 Q Well, do you have it here, your
11 work?
12 A No.
13 Q When do you intend to have your work
14 finished on that?
15 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
16 It's not the subject of the direct
17 testimony.
18 There are reports being drafted,
19 obviously, by board professionals.
20 If we can get to the board
21 professionals we would love to hear from
22 them so we can respond directly or make
23 revisions instead of going through this.
24 MR. DUNN: The board
25 professionals have asked a number of
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1 questions about -- about the application,
2 which is customary in proceedings of this
3 kind.
4 Q And my question is, do you have any
5 work product which is under way which seeks to
6 respond to the questions raised by the board
7 professionals concerning utilities, and you said
8 you are working on it?
9 A Right.
10 Q So that means you have got some
11 paperwork.
12 Did you bring it here?
13 A No, and a lot of it is on the
14 computer.
15 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object,
16 because that would be work product that is
17 not part of the file at this point.
18 We are beginning to prepare
19 revisions. That is not the subject of this
20 cross-examination, and it's inappropriate.
21 MR. DUNN: Those revisions will
22 be subject to cross-examination at such
23 time as they are presented to the board.
24 MR. KIENZ: That's correct.
25 MR. SEGRETO: Well, but when --
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1 MR. DUNN: When are you going --
2 no.
3 MR. SEGRETO: What you are saying
4 is if this engineering firm at sometime in
5 the future submits a response to your
6 engineers, then he will be brought back for
7 cross-examination as to the utilities?
8 MR. DUNN: Yes, sir.
9 MR. SEGRETO: I have no problem
10 with that.
11 Now, that also applies to the
12 planner?
13 MR. DUNN: It applies to our --
14 everybody. Everybody in this matter is
15 going to be subject to cross-examination,
16 Mr. Segreto --
17 MR. SEGRETO: Including --
18 MR. DUNN: -- as painful as that
19 may be.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Including experts who
21 submit reports, they will also be available
22 for cross-examination as to their reports.
23 Isn't that so?
24 MR. DUNN: That's correct.
25 MR. KIENZ: I will wait until Mr.
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1 Segreto's time is up because it's any
2 moment.
3 MR. SEGRETO: Say that again.
4 MR. KIENZ: I will wait until
5 your time is up, and then I will make a few
6 comments.
7 Q Now --
8 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, it is
9 ten o'clock.
10 I am going to add -- suggest to the
11 board they add ten minutes to the
12 cross-examination, like a soccer referee,
13 because there was some delay time in which
14 the witness was looking for documents, so
15 try to conclude your cross-examination in
16 ten minutes, please.
17 MR. SEGRETO: I would respectfully
18 suggest that the questions I have been
19 asking are relevant questions. They deal
20 with important --
21 MR. DUNN: Why don't you wait
22 until your ten minutes is up and then you
23 can make an application to the board for an
24 extension for good cause.
25 MR. SEGRETO: Okay.
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1 Q Now, with regard to the utilities
2 for the entirety of the project, the whole
3 project, have plans been prepared for the
4 utilities for the entire project?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Does that include the relocated
7 ferry, the precise location of which doesn't seem
8 to be depicted on the plan?
9 A That includes the ferry, yes. There
10 will be a separate site plan application for the
11 ferry terminal.
12 Q I am talking about the general plan,
13 the planned development application.
14 Are you familiar with the requirement in
15 the site plan that in the -- at the planned
16 application level you must submit the details
17 concerning all of the utilities for the entire
18 project?
19 A Yes, I am aware of that.
20 Q Have you submitted plans for all of
21 the utilities for the entire project?
22 A Yes. The only thing we don't show
23 are the actual connections to the building for all
24 the laterals. We don't know where all the
25 utilities will be connected to each individual
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1 building. That will be the subject of the
2 individual site plan.
3 Q Does the plan show the location for
4 the relocated -- the relocated ferry?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You know exactly where it's going to
7 go and its size?
8 A I know where it's going to go, and I
9 know approximately the size.
10 A It's being designed now.
11 Q You say it's being designed?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So if it's being designed you don't
14 know where it's going to go?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q You do?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is it graphically shown somewhere?
19 A On Exhibit A-9.
20 Q And does it show the parking spaces?
21 A Parking is contained inside-parking
22 decks just across the road from the ferry -- from
23 where the ferry terminal will be.
24 Q Is that shown on the plan also?
25 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
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1 That has nothing to do with public
2 utilities. What does parking have to do
3 with it?
4 MR. SEGRETO: Public utilities are
5 where the public utilities are going to go.
6 It depends where the parking lots are going
7 to be. You have got the storm system --
8 storm collecting system. You are going to
9 have acres and acres of parking lots of
10 impervious surfaces. You are going to have
11 to get that stormwater into your stormwater
12 system, and it has nothing to do with
13 utilities?
14 MR. KIENZ: If the plans had been
15 reviewed it would be clear where the
16 parking is and what the structures are, so
17 again I object.
18 MR. DUNN: Let the witness
19 answer the question if he can.
20 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. Would
21 you say it one more time.
22 MR. DUNN: He just took his
23 paper out.
24 Would you rephrase the question.
25 Q The design work that is being done,
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129
1 when are you going to anticipate that the design
2 work is going to be done?
3 A It's a different question.
4 MR. KIENZ: Answer the question.
5 Answer this question.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am hesitant
7 hesitating on that, still trying to
8 figure where we are going to finish all
9 this.
10 I am going to say within weeks.
11 Q And then do you plan to submit or is
12 somebody going to submit those plans to this
13 board?
14 A Of course.
15 Q And will those plans include the
16 locations and descriptions of the proposed
17 utilities to subserve what is on the plan?
18 A They do now.
19 Q Even though the plans are not done?
20 MR. DUNN: I am going to sustain
21 this line of questioning as to relevancy.
22 We are talking about a preliminary
23 plan, Mr. Segreto, and on the preliminary
24 plan, as I understand the ordinance, we
25 need to know that the utilities service
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
130
1 every lot on the properties and the
2 utilities are of sufficient capacity.
3 We do not need to know the design of
4 every little detail of every particular use
5 on the property, and so I am going to
6 sustain an objection to relevancy on that.
7 Q Do you have the datum concerning the
8 storm drainage system that's going to subserve the
9 ferry?
10 A It really isn't a storm system to
11 serve the ferry.
12 It's sitting out over the water.
13 Q Well, I am talking about the
14 principal use is the ferry, but it has an
15 accessory use; namely, the parking?
16 A Which is contained inside a parking
17 deck across the road underneath some office
18 building.
19 Q Have you done all of that work, all
20 the utility work, the design work?
21 A We have done what was required for
22 the planned development.
23 Like I said before, the individual
24 connections are not shown. The main lateral, the
25 main -- the main trunk lines are shown around the
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1 facilities, though, as is required.
2 Q Now we are back to stormwater so you
3 understand.
4 The stormwater is going to go into the
5 river. Right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Is there going to be any
8 pretreatment before it goes into the water to
9 eliminate petrochemical residuals or macadam
10 surface discharges?
11 A Yes, I mentioned last time that
12 there would be these -- the last -- the last
13 outflow, the last structure before the outflow
14 pipe that goes into the Hudson River pipe will
15 have a stump and a hood for separation of oil and
16 water and the collection of settleables.
17 Q Do you know the difference between a
18 sediment arrangement as opposed to a pretreatment?
19 A "Pretreatment" is a very broad term.
20 Q Well, do you know that there are
21 pretreatment package plants that are designed to
22 eliminate petrochemical residuals from macadam
23 surfaces?
24 A I am aware of that.
25 Q Are you planning to put one of those
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
132
1 in or several of those in?
2 A At the brownstone site we are
3 planning on putting some in.
4 Q That's the -- only the brownstone.
5 Does that mean all the other places,
6 whatever contaminants are generated by the macadam
7 and the roads, is going to go out into the river
8 without any treatment -- any chemical treatment or
9 biological treatment? Is that true?
10 A There won't be any chemical or
11 biological treatment, but there will be the
12 oil/water separator through the hood.
13 Q What happens when the flow is so
14 great that the sediment area is flooded and it
15 just bypasses and goes right out, doesn't it?
16 A Yes, it can.
17 Q Now, have you done any calculations
18 and analysis of the quantity and quality of the
19 contamination which will discharge into the river
20 for a 25-year storm?
21 A We have done it in a very broad
22 sense, in that the existing site now is a huge
23 parking lot which will be converted into rooms and
24 some roads. The amount of exposed asphalt for
25 parking is greatly diminished. Water quality on
133 Lanza - Cross - Segreto
1 the site will improve on this new development.
2 Q I thought in response to my earlier
3 question you said you don't know what the quantity
4 square-foot quantity of existing impervious
5 surface is compared to what it will be if the
6 proposed development were built.
7 A I did say that.
8 Q Do you remember having said that?
9 A Yes, I did say that.
10 Q Well, do you now know what the
11 square footage of the existing impervious surfaces
12 -- surface is now compared to what it will be if
13 this development is approved or built?
14 A I still don't know the exact
15 numbers, no.
16 Q So you don't know what the quantity
17 and quality of contamination for a 25-year storm
18 will be on this site. Isn't that right?
19 A Not exactly.
20 Q Well, if you did a study, please get
21 the papers that show the qualitative and
22 quantitative analysis which you did of the
23 contaminants which will be discharged into the
24 system by your storm drain plan.
25 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Dunn -- excuse me
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
134
1 -- is there a second injury period that I
2 missed here?
3 MR. DUNN: I was going to let
4 Mr. Segreto finish with this line of
5 questioning. I think it's fair to do that.
6 MR. KIENZ: Note my objection.
7 Q Do you have those documents?
8 A No, I don't.
9 This is part of the ongoing work we are
10 doing with the DEP.
11 MR. DUNN: All right. Mr.
12 Segreto, your time is up.
13 MR. SEGRETO: I would request now
14 that the chair provide me more time.
15 I believe that the record
16 demonstrates that the questions that I have
17 asked are relative -- not relative --
18 relevant. They deal with the subject
19 matter of the utilities, which was the
20 subject of his examination.
21 He expressed all kinds of net
22 conclusions. I have been probing the
23 underpinnings of those net conclusions, and
24 I make a proffer now on the record as to
25 the areas that I wish to interrogate him.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
135
1 I want to ask him if he is familiar
2 with any historic data of existing
3 overflow. I am going to ask him --
4 MR. DUNN: Historic data of
5 existing overflow of what?
6 MR. SEGRETO: Of stormwater.
7 MR. DUNN: Overflow of
8 stormwater.
9 MR. SEGRETO: Yes, the stormwater
10 that's going to be.
11 MR. KIENZ: I am just trying to
12 understand you.
13 Okay.
14 MR. SEGRETO: I intend to ask him
15 -- give me a second.
16 MR. DUNN: We have other
17 witnesses to go forward tonight, and we
18 have board experts here.
19 Can you --
20 MR. SEGRETO: If you want to defer
21 --
22 MR. DUNN: No, can you expedite
23 your proffer?
24 MR. SEGRETO: I have no problem
25 with that. He has to come back anyway.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
136
1 MR. DUNN: Can you expedite your
2 proffer, please?
3 MR. SEGRETO: If you give me a
4 chance.
5 MR. KIENZ: Let me state for the
6 record I am not sure he is coming back on
7 this kind of testimony because Mr. Segreto
8 had the opportunity --
9 MR. SEGRETO: Not even when he
10 brings the rest of the utility files?
11 MR. KIENZ: Will you let me
12 finish.
13 MR. SEGRETO: I am sorry.
14 MR. KIENZ: That's exempted. I
15 am not so sure he is coming back to
16 testify. Mr. Segreto had every opportunity
17 to avoid the fishing expedition that,
18 frankly, took place tonight where he is
19 casting to and fro with different bait to
20 try and get whatever it was.
21 The record was very, very clear.
22 Mr. Dunn read from the transcript. He had
23 a chance to examine things.
24 It would have saved an enormous
25 amount of time if Mr. Segreto simply done
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
137
1 what was agreed to at the last hearing, Mr.
2 Chairman. That's why we are not done.
3 It's two to one. This is enough.
4 The clock is ticking. The clock is
5 ticking. We want to get on with it. We,
6 quite frankly, want to hear from an
7 engineer that's sitting in the back because
8 he will be telling us what the
9 municipality's position is on this
10 permitted use.
11 This isn't a contested case. This
12 is a permitted use under your ordinances.
13 MR. DUNN: Do you have anything
14 else to proffer, Mr. Segreto?
15 MR. SEGRETO: Yes, if you just give
16 me a second.
17 MR. DUNN: You had about five
18 minutes.
19 MR. SEGRETO: I wanted to ask him
20 about the issue of the impervious liner.
21 MR. DUNN: He didn't testify to the
22 impervious liner. He didn't testify on his
23 direct examination to the impervious liner,
24 and he testified --
25 MR. SEGRETO: You keep asking me to
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
138
1 make the proffer.
2 MR. DUNN: All right.
3 MR. SEGRETO: Then I say something
4 and you interrupt me and I have to stop
5 looking at my papers and listen to what you
6 say, so give me a shot at it and let me go
7 through my notes and I will tell you where
8 I want to go.
9 I most emphatically want him to
10 bring the rest of the utility files, which
11 he did not bring, so I can examine him in
12 connection with those.
13 MR. DUNN: Can you point to me
14 in the transcript --
15 MR. SEGRETO: You are doing it
16 again. I am making my proffer.
17 MR. DUNN: Yes, I am doing it
18 again.
19 Can you point to me in the
20 transcript where the witness agreed to
21 bring his files?
22 It was my understanding that the
23 inspection was in lieu of a subpoena, and I
24 haven't been able to find in the transcript
25 where the -- where the witness -- where you
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
139
1 asked that the witness bring his files or
2 that the witness agreed to bring his files.
3 MR. KIENZ: I agree that's why we
4 did the correspondence and we set it up,
5 and that's why we had the hiatus between
6 the last meeting and this meeting. We did
7 it for the other witnesses that are coming
8 to avoid the fishing expedition.
9 MR. SEGRETO: The witness testified
10 under oath that he had brought his entire
11 file dealing with utilities, and it is
12 manifest that he has not.
13 I am not quarrelsome. I put my
14 story on the record.
15 The board attorney recommends, the
16 chairman rules, and then we later on find
17 out what the story is.
18 Just if you please give me a second
19 here and I will go through these notes.
20 MR. KIENZ: I hope this time is
21 going to come off the cross-examination of
22 the next witness.
23 MR. TURNER: Behave ourselves.
24 MR. KIENZ: While he is
25 searching, could we have maybe the public
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
140
1 -- I know Ms. Wadaia had wanted to ask some
2 questions.
3 MR. DUNN: No. No. We are
4 going to leave this up to the board because
5 I think we will get an idea.
6 MR. SEGRETO: I intend to
7 interrogate him about whether or not the
8 water quality in the vicinity of the
9 project is generally considered poor and
10 that is attributable to high pollution
11 loadings from inadequately-treated
12 municipal and industrial effluence
13 infiltration and inflow source and
14 out-point sources of pollution associated
15 with urban and industrial land use.
16 I intend --
17 MR. DUNN: That's water quality.
18 Okay.
19 MR. SEGRETO: If you just gave --
20 give me a second, I have some notes from my
21 clients.
22 Those are the areas that I want to
23 cover.
24 MR. DUNN: All right. It's my
25 opinion that the issues of historic data of
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
141
1 existing overflow of stormwater are
2 irrelevant, that the impervious liner has
3 been asked and answered frequently tonight,
4 that whether or not the water quality is
5 poor in the entire area is irrelevant to
6 the matter that's before this board, and,
7 therefore, I would recommend to the board
8 that they not extend the time.
9 MR. GOULD: Do we have to take a
10 motion?
11 MR. DUNN: I think you should
12 have a motion to take a vote.
13 MR. GOULD: Would somebody like
14 to make a motion?
15 MR. CABRERA: I will make a motion,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 MR. GOULD: Okay.
18 MR. BARSA: I will second it.
19 MR. GOULD: Second.
20 Can we have a roll call.
21 THE CLERK: Mr. Rosas.
22 MR. ROSAS: Yes.
23 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
24 MR. BARSA: Yes.
25 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
142
1 MR. TURNER: Yes.
2 If I may, Mr. Chairman, I think --
3 may I make a statement -- a personal
4 statement or you prefer not?
5 MR. DUNN: I would prefer that
6 you not.
7 MR. TURNER: Yes.
8 MR. DUNN: I think all of us
9 share your frustration.
10 MR. SEGRETO: I understand.
11 MR. TURNER: I thought we can't
12 make a statement. It's -- obviously, we
13 are preparing for other things.
14 Yes. I vote yes.
15 MR. GOULD: I will proceed with
16 the vote, and then I will ask something
17 after that.
18 Yes.
19 THE CLERK: Mr. Cabrera.
20 MR. CABRERA: No.
21 MR. TURNER: "Yes" is to
22 terminate. Right?
23 MR. DUNN: The motion is not to
24 extend the time.
25 MR. CABRERA: Right. Okay. Yes.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
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1 THE CLERK: Carol Kravitz.
2 MS. KRAVITZ: Yes.
3 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
4 MR. TURNER: You moved the motion.
5 That's why.
6 MR. GOULD: My question is -- I
7 think there will be time -- correct me if I
8 am wrong, Tom -- for you to ask additional
9 questions after we hear our town's expert
10 testimony on some of these matters.
11 Is that a true statement?
12 MR. DUNN: That's correct.
13 MR. GOULD: So I would suggest
14 that if you have additional questions along
15 these lines that are relevant, you can ask
16 them at that time.
17 MR. SEGRETO: I am -- I have no
18 problem with that, Mr. Chairman, as long as
19 we understand that later on I will get
20 another shot at this particular -- forgive
21 me -- the colloquialism.
22 MR. DUNN: This characteristic
23 of "game playing," another shot, we are not
24 playing games. We are endeavoring in a
25 search for the truth.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
144
1 MR. SEGRETO: Why are you pompous
2 towards me?
3 What that means is another
4 opportunity to cross-examine him on
5 utilities.
6 MR. TURNER: If I may, I think the
7 chairman just outlined another opportunity.
8 MR. DUNN: Let's move on. Let's
9 move on. We have another witness waiting.
10 MR. GOULD: I think at this time
11 we still owe it to any members of the
12 public that would like to ask any questions
13 of Mr. Lanza, any members of the public who
14 are not represented by Mr. Segreto, to ask
15 any questions.
16 MS. WADAIA: I have some from last
17 time.
18 MR. GOULD: Judy, would you step
19 up and state your name.
20 MS. WADAIA: My name is Judith
21 Wadaia, W-a-d-a-i-a, 10 Louisa Place.
22 MS. WADAIA: Are there going to be
23 any utilities on the Palisades?
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 MR. DUNN: You mean new ones,
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
145
1 Judy?
2 MS. WADAIA: Electrical utilities
3 for lighting, that sort of thing.
4 THE WITNESS: No. Everything is
5 down at the base of the Palisades.
6 MS. WADAIA: So there won't be any
7 lighting at all of the whole Palisades?
8 THE WITNESS: No, there is nothing
9 planned for that.
10 MS. WADAIA: Okay. You had
11 mentioned last time -- it's a little
12 difficult for me to recall exactly after so
13 many weeks -- but you had mentioned that
14 there were going to be sewage lines and
15 other utilities in the vicinity of the
16 light rail, and right now there are Conrail
17 tracks there.
18 Are you going to install the
19 utilities along the Conrail tracks?
20 THE WITNESS: The utilities are
21 going to be primarily in Port Imperial
22 Boulevard, which is the current road now.
23 It's going to be realigned slightly and
24 widened slightly. The utilities had been
25 underneath the pavement in that.
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
146
1 The thing I discussed with New
2 Jersey Transit, who now owns the property
3 and is planning on putting in another line
4 next to the line that's there, was handling
5 some of their stormwater from their new
6 line, to let it pass through our system out
7 to the river also, but there is no sanitary
8 line.
9 MS. WADAIA: There are going to be
10 two railroad lines, one from Conrail and
11 New Jersey Transit?
12 THE WITNESS: No, Conrail,
13 essentially, is going to be using that line
14 and transferring the trains to another
15 line.
16 That line that's there now will be
17 replaced by a light rail line, the same
18 alignment, basically, and a light rail will
19 be used on that.
20 Another one will be built next to it
21 for light rail. No Conrail freight trains
22 are coming through there any longer.
23 MS. WADAIA: You install your
24 utilities on that site after the Conrail
25 tracks are removed and before the light
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
147
1 rail tracks go in?
2 THE WITNESS: No. In all
3 likelihood the utilities for this project
4 will be installed -- almost all of them
5 will be installed before the light rail is
6 completed. That's a long process, the
7 light rail line. There is no interference,
8 though.
9 MR. DUNN: Judy, I think your
10 recollection was at the last meeting we
11 talked about whether there was capacity in
12 the lines that they were going to build, to
13 take the drainage from the Conrail
14 property, but not that there would be pipes
15 built by this developer in the Conrail
16 property. I think that's what we asked
17 about.
18 MS. WADAIA: I didn't recall too
19 well after a month.
20 Are you aware that there are any
21 areas in Weehawken that currently regularly
22 get flooded?
23 THE WITNESS: In Weehawken I am not
24 aware that get regularly flooded.
25 MS. WADAIA: There is one area in
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
148
1 Weehawken called the Shades. I don't know
2 if that's just a popular name or how to
3 describe it.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 MS. WADAIA: And I understand that
6 that area gets flooded very regularly
7 including sewer backups and everything.
8 THE WITNESS: I was going to say
9 that's what I have heard, there are sewer
10 backups over there, not necessarily
11 stormwater, but sewage. I heard of that in
12 that area. It's close to the Hoboken
13 border.
14 MS. WADAIA: So how is all that
15 new stuff going to -- and the pipes going
16 from the new development to Hoboken have to
17 go through the Shades?
18 MR. TURNER: The only time there
19 is a backup --
20 MR. DUNN: Richard, let the
21 witness answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I can explain that.
23 That area is one of the areas that
24 had a problem with a siphon that runs
25 underneath the railroad tracks, in other
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
149
1 words, the sanitary sewage from a lot of
2 the uphill areas can't get under the
3 railroad tracks and into the treatment
4 plant, because this siphon, it's just a
5 pipe that goes under the railroad tracks is
6 well beyond capacity, especially if it
7 rains, so sewage does back up on this side
8 of the railroad tracks in the area called
9 the Shades. I am not sure why it's called
10 that. It's the Shades neighborhood.
11 What we are near is the 18th Street
12 pump station, the Shades area.
13 What's going to happen when we put
14 our new line in directly to the treatment
15 plant, the Baldwin Avenue pump station will
16 be unloaded, a lot of the sewage goes
17 through it, and the 18th Street pump
18 station will be able to direct its flows
19 directly into our new line into the
20 treatment plant also, so we are unburdening
21 two pump stations by developing our
22 project, which will allow the sewerage
23 authority to start making the corrections
24 that they need to make for areas such as
25 the Shades, so the capacity for what goes
Lanza - Cross - Segreto
150
1 in under the siphon to the shades area had
2 been reduced by us allowing the new line to
3 go to the treatment plant. It will be an
4 improvement.
5 That's all I know about that area,
6 though.
7 MS. WADAIA: Okay. What
8 utilities, such as street lights and those
9 kinds of things, are you going to be
10 putting in in the area over the tunnel
11 tubes?
12 THE WITNESS: There will be street
13 lights. There is a parking lot, tennis
14 courts, and that's it, and a park.
15 MS. WADAIA: When you put in the
16 street lights and everything, how much
17 footing is required and how do you -- how
18 -- the area is very sensitive over the
19 tubes, as I am sure you are aware?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 MS. WADAIA: Will there be a
22 special way you address that when you are
23 putting in your street lights?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't suspect it
25 will be too special. The tunnel is fairly
Lanza - Cross - Segreto

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