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NOVEMBER 4, 1999
56 TO 110

Jeffrey Lanza, Engineer, Direct Testimony
Michael Friedman Environmental Witness, Cross-Examination by James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on
ovember 4th, 1999.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 4 different web pages.

Jump to 11/04/99 pages 1  to 55
Jump to 11/04/99 pages 111 to 166
Jump to 11/04/99 pages 167  to 213 (end of transcript)

Go to Page 80

1 combined sewer overflow that's owned by the North
2 Atlantic Sewerage Authority and discharges right
3 in this area here.
4 Q Combined sewer overflow?
5 A Yes, it's a combined sewer overflow.
6 There are actually two of them on this
7 site. There is one large one right here, and
8 there is one on a further exhibit north up by the
9 ferry terminal, a small 12-inch line.
10 They are passing through our site. What
11 they do is in the event of a large storm, larger
12 than the existing sewer system up on the hill, can
13 handle and discharging down to the river directly
14 and bypassing the treatment plant, the wastewater
15 treatment plant that's -- I will get into more
16 detail with that when I discuss the sanitary
17 sewage.
18 Q Okay.
19 A Again we have short --
20 MR. WARE: Plate 175.
21 A Moving further north, this is
22 Pershing Road, and there are a few more existing
23 -- in light green existing lines that come out to
24 the river. These are underground pipes that
25 convey water from the parking lot that exist there
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 now and discharge through head walls out into the
2 river.
3 There is also another line that passes
4 through this site. It's not a combined sewer
5 overflow.
6 Q Geof, what are you trying -- we have
7 to get that on the record.
8 A I am on Pershing now. I am tracing
9 the light-green line that exits, the existing
10 stormwater line, and runs down Pershing and goes
11 down to the river. That's collecting stormwater
12 up at the top of Pershing Road.
13 Proposed in this area again are going to be
14 the connections directly to the river underground
15 piping. These dots represent inlets. We end up
16 with a total of 20 discharge points out to the
17 river.
18 All the lines that are existing on this
19 plate, with the exception of the lines that come
20 down Pershing and the line for the combined sewer
21 overflow, are going to be eliminated and
22 stormwater had been rerouted.
23 Q Obviously, the lines that you are
24 showing are, basically, a mirror of our proposed
25 street grid. Is that correct?
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Okay. Anything else on this plate?
3 A No.
4 MR. WARE: Plate 176.
5 A This is the very north end of the
6 project site.
7 This is West New York over in this area
8 here, and we are catching the tail end of the
9 existing stormwater lines that will be taken out
10 of service because they are no longer necessary
11 because the parking lot is being taken out of
12 service.
13 Then we have the connections directly to
14 the river, some fairly short ones that discharge
15 out to the river, the river being at the bottom of
16 the screen.
17 Each of the discharge -- before each of the
18 discharge points there will be water quality
19 structure, and have a total, I think I mentioned,
20 a total of 20 of them versus the five that are
21 there now.
22 Q Okay. This stormwater collection
23 system, this will be subject to review and
24 approval by a variety of agencies, including the
25 planning board and its engineer, and DEP will also
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 be looking at it. Is that correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Do you have anything else, Geof, on
4 this plate?
5 A No.
6 MR. WARE: Do you want to go
7 back to Plate 78?
9 MR. WARE: Back to 172.
10 MR. SEGRETO: Could the record
11 reflect the name and the position of the
12 person from time to time who is saying
13 things that are going to appear in the
14 transcript, for example, a suggestion to
15 the witness to go back to a different
16 plate, can we have an identification of who
17 he is, who is doing this?
18 MR. KIENZ: I am a little
19 confused.
20 I think I am the one who is
21 suggesting it.
22 MR. SEGRETO: No, I just heard the
23 gentleman to my rear.
24 MR. KIENZ: He has been noted on
25 the record, Mr. Segreto. You probably
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 aren't aware of that.
2 That's Mr. Ware. He actually has
3 been qualified. He is not only a
4 professional, engineer but he is also in
5 charge of the graphics, so that's all part
6 of the procedure. Everyone knows that he
7 is Mr. Ware.
8 MR. SEGRETO: I understand that,
9 but it is not customary for somebody who
10 does the projection to suggest to a
11 witness, who is under direct examination,
12 what he should do in terms of things.
13 I think that ought to come out of
14 the attorney. I am not going to quibble
15 about it as long as we know who is doing
16 it.
17 MR. DUNN: It's Mr. Ware. He
18 has been sworn as a witness. He is fully
19 familiar with the exhibits that have been
20 projected on the screen as graphics.
21 MR. KIENZ: All right. That's
22 noted, Mr. Segreto. We will deal with
23 that.
24 Q Mr. Lanza, where are we?
25 A I am wrapping up the stormwater.
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 Q Okay.
2 A I think I just did actually.
3 I would like to go onto the next one.
4 Q There are some systems -- once the
5 water gets to the water's edge, there is a system
6 to, basically, handle the water, and then it
7 discharges. Is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Okay. Do you have any other
10 testimony on stormwater?
11 A No, we can move onto the next one,
12 Plate 177.
13 MR. WARE: Excuse me.
14 You had indicated 182.
15 THE WITNESS: Let's do 177 first.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. WARE: Plate 177.
18 THE WITNESS: Again, the color is
19 going to fade on this, and regarding the
20 sanitary sewers, we can discuss existing
21 sanitary that's shown in the light purple
22 and then the proposed sanitary in the dark
23 purple.
24 The existing uses on the site that I
25 mentioned earlier, the banana building,
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 Arthur's Landing Restaurant, the ferry
2 terminal, these have sanitary sewage flows
3 that run to a pump station on Baldwin
4 Avenue, called the Baldwin Avenue pump
5 station.
6 There is a small pump station at
7 Arthur's Landing Restaurant that pumps
8 sewerage up to the vicinity of the Pershing
9 Road bridge, and then that sewerage is
10 dropped into two eight-inch lines that
11 zigzag through the site paralleling Port
12 Imperial Boulevard, essentially, and drop
13 into an 18-inch line that conveys sewerage
14 over to the Baldwin Avenue pump station.
15 Likewise, the banana building has
16 existing laterals to tap into the 18-inch
17 line that runs along the Boulevard, 12th
18 Avenue. That pump station sends sewerage
19 directly to the treatment plant.
20 Q Can we see, when you went off to the
21 left --
22 A Yes, Plate 182, please.
23 MR. WARE: Plate 182.
24 THE WITNESS: This is an exhibit
25 that shrinks down the entire site over in
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 this area and shows --
2 Q Where you have the pointer now,
3 Geof, is where you were on the last plate. Is
4 that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Okay.
7 A For reference, this is the banana
8 building right here.
9 Baldwin Avenue is right here, and the
10 Baldwin Avenue pump station is right next to it.
11 From the Baldwin Avenue pump station, the
12 sewerage is pumped directly to the treatment
13 plant, which is over here.
14 Q Over here is where -- you are moving
15 it to the left of the screen. Can you just give
16 some points of reference that you passed over with
17 your lazer gun?
18 A Yes.
19 From Baldwin Avenue the sewage is pumped
20 underneath the helix for the Lincoln Tunnel. It
21 runs up along Park Avenue and virtually passes
22 underneath that site, railroad and siphoned into
23 the treatment plant at Adams Street in Hoboken.
24 His treatment plant is owned and supported
25 by the North Hudson Sewerage Authority, and that
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 treatment plant will be servicing this entire area
2 also.
3 Q Geof, can we go to the other plate
4 that we have?
5 A Certainly.
6 Plate 183, Steve.
7 MR. WARE: Plate 183.
8 THE WITNESS: Again, this is the
9 Baldwin Avenue area, Baldwin Avenue pump
10 station. This is the banana building for
11 reference. There is the helix, the Baldwin
12 Avenue pump station -- this is just a
13 blowup of the last exhibit -- sends
14 sewerage up to the treatment plant in
15 Hoboken right in this area here.
16 That's the existing sanitary sewage
17 for the banana building and Arthur's
18 Landing and the ferry terminal right now.
19 Q I think the most important question
20 is, who runs that facility, what's the name?
21 A The North Hudson Sewerage Authority.
22 Q Is there capacity there?
23 A The treatment plant has plenty of
24 capacity. Its permitted capacity is a little over
25 20 MGD.
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 Q What does that mean?
2 A 20 million gallons per day, it
3 operates right now, in other words, it receives a
4 little over 12 million gallons per day.
5 When we build out Port Imperial South
6 completely, it will be generating around point
7 seven.
8 Q Point seven?
9 A Seven tenths of one MGD.
10 Q Put it in a number that I can
11 understand.
12 A 700,000 gallons per day.
13 Q 700,000 gallons a day we are going
14 to generate. Is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And you said the excess capacity at
17 the facility is in the neighborhood of eight
18 million?
19 A Eight-million gallons per day.
20 Correct.
21 Q Okay. Now, did we get a letter from
22 the North Hudson Sewerage Authority?
23 A Yes, I got a letter from the
24 Sewerage Authority.
25 Q That letter was dated?
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 A October 27th I got a letter.
2 Q And that letter said?
3 A That there is plenty of capacity at
4 the treatment plant. It essentially reiterated
5 the numbers I just said.
6 MR. SEGRETO: What was the date?
7 THE WITNESS: October 27th.
8 MR. SEGRETO: '98?
9 THE WITNESS: 1999.
10 We have had many meetings with the
11 Sewerage Authority to discuss how we are
12 going to convey sewerage to the treatment
13 plant, which has plenty of capacity.
14 There are conveyance problems going
15 from the site to the treatment plant, which
16 will be remedied when we build out the
17 project.
18 Q That's what your testimony is going
19 to focus on right now. Is that correct?
20 A Correct. But the plant has plenty
21 of capacity.
22 If I can go back to 180 -- or 177, please.
23 MR. WARE: Plate 177.
24 THE WITNESS: This will all be --
25 become clear when we look at the blowups.
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 Q For the record, this is the general
2 sheet again. Right?
3 A Correct.
4 Q This is the amalgum sheet of 15, 16,
5 17, and 18 prints?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Okay.
8 A The existing sanitary sewage runs to
9 the pump station and pumped to the treatment
10 plant.
11 There are also a couple of other things
12 that happens on the site related to sanitary
13 sewage that will be accommodated as we do the
14 build out of the project.
15 We have the combined sewer overflow I had
16 mentioned earlier which comes down the Palisades
17 and discharges here.
18 There is also --
19 MR. DUNN: Where is "here"?
20 Q Give us a geographic for the area.
21 A Just west of Arthur's Landing
22 Restaurant, about 150 feet west of Arthur's
23 Landings Restaurant.
24 Q West and slightly south?
25 A Slightly south.
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 That's a 60-inch line that comes down the
2 hill. At the base of it where it discharges to
3 the river it opens up into two five-by-five
4 culverts, but it's a 60-inch line coming down the
5 hill.
6 There is another combined sewer overflow
7 that comes up from the top of Pershing Road that
8 drops down into the area where the ferry terminal
9 is going to be constructed. That's a 12-inch
10 line.
11 These two overflows are required to have
12 some other treatment systems put in place, and the
13 Authority is looking at some type of netting
14 chambers right now.
15 What's going to happen with each of these
16 overflows -- by the way, the overflow systems
17 that's designed in Weehawken, is typical of a lot
18 of urban systems.
19 Q Weehawken are talking about up on
20 top?
21 A Up on top, yes, sends its sanitary
22 sewage and its stormwater to the treatment plants.
23 It's a combined system. It was common a long time
24 ago.
25 It's not used any longer, and this project
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 will not have combined sewers at all, but if there
2 is a heavy rain and the system that handles the
3 storm and the sanitary, the pipe system that
4 handles the storm and sanitary gets overloaded,
5 there are some overflow points where the
6 stormwater, during heavy rain, can overflow by
7 passing the plant and just drop down to the river.
8 On this project site it happens at two locations.
9 The Sewerage Authority is required to take
10 care of that problem now. They have got a series
11 of them up along the Hudson River. There are two
12 of them on our project site.
13 Netting chambers will be installed at the
14 12-inch overflow here, as well as in the 60-inch
15 overflow that comes down in here.
16 Likewise, when the brownstones are going to
17 be constructed, we are going to be relocating the
18 overflow, the 60-inch one further south, and
19 discharge out of this area here. It's just below
20 some tennis court areas and a parking lot just
21 below the banana building.
22 Q Geof, this overflow is storage. Is
23 that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q It's not related in any way, shape
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 or form to the development of our proposed
2 project?
3 A No, this is just for passing
4 through, like some storm lines are passing through
5 our site. We aren't tapping into those. We are
6 not adding to them.
7 We are going to be going over and under
8 them and going around them. We still need to let
9 them pass through our site.
10 Q Can we go now to the south end. I
11 think that's our next site, right, Geof.
12 MR. WARE: Site 178.
13 A The existing 18-inch line that I
14 talked about earlier, coming from the north, from
15 the vicinity of Pershing Road is shown in the
16 light purple and runs to the pump station, and it
17 gets pumped out.
18 The heavier lines are the proposed lines
19 that we are going to put in when we do this build
20 out. What's going to be put in right now will be
21 a new pump station that will handle all of the
22 sanitary flows from the entire development.
23 The entire development will send all its
24 flows by a gravity down to this pump station.
25 From this pump station a new line, a new force
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 main will be constructed directly to the treatment
2 plant. It will run along the Conrail railroad
3 tracts that run along the railroad tracts into
4 Hoboken.
5 Q That new combined line will contain
6 stormwater?
7 A Again, the generation of sewerage in
8 this area is going to be on the order of 700,000
9 gallons per day. These lines and the pump station
10 are sized to handle that.
11 In addition, this pump station will,
12 likewise, will take some additional flow, about
13 another one-million gallons per day off of
14 Pershing Road.
15 There is another sanitary line that comes
16 down, like I had mentioned earlier, and drops down
17 at Pershing Road into two eight-inch lines that
18 run all -- eventually making their way to the
19 Baldwin pump station. Those lines are old. They
20 are going to be in the way of the brownstone.
21 We are going to be taking that sewerage,
22 instead of just relocating, instead of just
23 relocating the lines away from the brownstone
24 buildings, we are actually going to take that
25 sewerage into our system and allow it to come into
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 our pump station so we can pump it directly to the
2 plant.
3 What that does is it alleviates the
4 capacity problems that occur at Baldwin Avenue.
5 During wet weather, the Baldwin Avenue pump
6 station is just about at capacity, so what we
7 would be doing in this case, this is based on our
8 negotiatons and conversations with the Sewerage
9 Authority, is alleviating a lot of pressure on the
10 Baldwin Avenue pump station, essentially, taking
11 half the flow that goes to it out of it now.
12 Q Are there any other improvements you
13 need to discuss on this plate?
14 A There is one last one.
15 There is another pump station on 18th
16 Street.
17 If I could go, Steve, back to plate 183,
18 just for a second.
19 MR. WARE: 183.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 Again, the Baldwin Avenue pump
22 station and the treatment plant.
23 Our new line that we are going to
24 construct from our new pump station, which
25 will service the new project, will run
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 along -- essentially, along the Conrail
2 tracks, not in the tracks, but following
3 that line, essentially, over to the
4 treatment plant.
5 On the way to that we pass by
6 another pump station owned by the Authority
7 at 18th Street.
8 This station has some capacity
9 problems with it also. There is a series
10 of problems in this area because there is a
11 combined sewer system in this area.
12 By us putting a new force main
13 directly into the plant, we can allow the
14 18th Street pump station likewise to
15 discharge into our force main very easily
16 and take and allow additional capacity at
17 the plant to get where it currently goes to
18 get underneath the railroad site and into
19 the plant, and that will allow the
20 authority to do some other improvements in
21 the area with their overflows and their
22 netting chambers.
23 Thank you.
24 MR. KIENZ: Go to the next plate,
25 please.
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 MR. WARE: Plate 179.
2 Q What improvements are shown?
3 A This is the banana building again.
4 Here is the proposed location of the pump
5 station for our site, and then we have the
6 proposed lines, the gravity lines that all flow in
7 this direction to the pump station.
8 Here is the relocation of the large
9 combined overflow that we talked about. They come
10 down off of the hill.
11 We have laterals that will be connecting to
12 the brownstones in this area. We have laterals
13 coming from the proposed banana building, and we
14 will have laterals that will pick up the waste
15 from Arthur's Landing Restaurant and the buildings
16 on the next plate, Plate 179.
17 MR. WARE: That's what we just
18 --
19 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. 180.
20 MR. WARE: Plate 180.
21 Q While he is doing that, Geof, to
22 accomplish that we are going to need treatment
23 works approval?
24 A Yes, treatment works approval will
25 be required from the Department of Environmental
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 Protection of New Jersey.
2 That's a permitting process, where they
3 will be reviewing all of the design calculations
4 for the pump stations and the conveyance systems.
5 The applications that go down to Trenton
6 for the treatment works approval will have to be
7 endorsed by the Sewerage Authority also.
8 Q What plate are we on?
9 MR. WEIR: Plate 180.
10 A This is Plate 180.
11 This is just -- here is Pershing Road.
12 This is at the area where the existing parking lot
13 is today. Sanitary sewage, the main sanitary
14 line, trunk line will be running through the
15 Avenue of Port Imperial like this and then down
16 along Port Imperial Boulevard.
17 There will be laterals that will connect to
18 each of the buildings once the buildings are
19 finally designed and we know where the sanitary
20 connections will be made, but that is the main
21 collection system right down the center of the
22 road.
23 We can go to the next plate.
24 MR. WEIR: Plate 181.
25 THE WITNESS: Again, the proposed
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 sanitary main will run down the Avenue of
2 Port Imperial. Laterals from these
3 buildings will be connected, as well as the
4 ferry terminal, and will eventually make
5 their way down to the new pump station
6 directly to the treatment plant.
7 This line here is the existing
8 overflow line. This will be rerouted and
9 discharged out into the cove area here.
10 Q Anything else, Geof, on this plate?
11 A No.
12 Q Geof, by way of summary, you said
13 capacity is adequate. Is that correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And it's available from all the
16 different purveyors that we need as you discussed.
17 Is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What improvements are being realized
20 as a result of the installations that you
21 discussed? This is a requirement under
22 Weehawken's ordinance. You must address this.
23 A In summary, the project that's
24 before you tonight is going to allow several
25 important utilities to close gaps in their
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 systems.
2 There is regional systems in the area, and
3 there is a large gap here that occurs between West
4 New York and Lincoln Harbor. Water, electric,
5 telephone, gas, cable, they are all looking
6 forward to closing this gap, which will allow
7 redundance in all their systems.
8 In case there are failures elsewhere in the
9 systems, this is another route for their utilities
10 to get through. All the overhead lines that I
11 mentioned earlier along Port Imperial Boulevard
12 and elsewhere on the site will be put underground
13 now.
14 The stormwater to the river will be cleaner
15 now, and, lastly, the Sewerage Authority will have
16 improvements to their system allowed to be
17 constructed very easily now that we have done all
18 -- we are proposing all of the improvements to our
19 system, especially taking flows off the Baldwin
20 Avenue pump station, and carrying it to our pump
21 station as a pass through.
22 The netting chambers, obviously, are going
23 to improve water quality also.
24 Q What about capacity, provide any
25 additional capacity?
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 A As I mentioned earlier, the water
2 service, we only need to put in a 12-inch line to
3 handle this development. We are going to put a
4 line twice as large in because the water company
5 would like to have additional capacity in their
6 regional system.
7 That also applys to the electric. I failed
8 to mention that earlier. We only need about seven
9 or eight conduits to be put in for electric
10 service, yet we are going to put in 11 to 14,
11 which allow PSE&G to have additional capacity and
12 redundancy in their grid in the area.
13 Q Now that there was a problem at some
14 end, if somebody went out, they might be able to
15 use part of this additional capacity, having an
16 alternate way of getting power to another
17 location?
18 A That's correct. That's building
19 redundancy into their system.
20 Q Any other, Geof?
21 A That's a good summary.
22 Just before you sit down, I would like you
23 to just mention any other local permits that are
24 needed from the county.
25 A Well, we are going to need county
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 planning board approval for this project, which
2 will be applied for.
3 Another one that's somewhat local is the
4 Soil Conservation District. It's a joint
5 district. It includes parts of Hudson, Essex and
6 Passaic Counties.
7 Q We need that because we are
8 disturbing more than --
9 A More than 5,000 square feet.
10 Q -- more than 5,000 square feet?
11 A Just a little over 5,000 square
12 feet. Yes, we are disturbing a lot more than
13 5,000 square feet.
14 We will be required to have that kind of
15 certificate from the Soil Conservation District.
16 That will be applied for.
17 That will require us to control erosion
18 during the construction, and after construction,
19 control sediment, control dust, and we will put
20 provisions like that into our construction
21 drawings for the contractors to build in
22 accordance with that certificate.
23 Q We have another witness that will
24 talk about any state and federal permits that are
25 required?
Lanza - Direct - Kienz
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you have any other testimony, Mr.
3 Lanza?
4 A Not tonight.
5 MR. KIENZ: Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman.
8 MR. GOULD: We will take a break
9 now.
10 Thank you.
11 (Whereupon, a short recess is
12 taken.)
13 MR. GOULD: All right.
14 Okay, people, try to find their
15 seats. We will get started again.
16 Okay. Okay. We are back on the
17 record here.
18 Can I please have a roll call.
19 THE SECRETARY: Richard Barsa.
20 MR. BARSA: Here.
21 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Turner.
22 MR. TURNER: Here.
23 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Gould.
24 MR. GOULD: Here.
25 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Cabrera.
1 MR. CABRERA: Here.
2 THE SECRETARY: Ms. Kravitz.
3 MS. KRAVITZ: Here.
4 MR. GOULD: Okay. Thank you.
5 All right. We will entertain any
6 questions from the board now for Mr. Lanza.
7 Is Mr. Lanza here?
8 Okay.
9 MR. KIENZ: I believe, Mr.
10 Chairman, what we are going to do, the
11 board is going to ask Mr. Lanza questions.
12 We brought Mr. Friedman back to finish up
13 his cross. The board is going to ask Mr.
14 Lanza questions, and then we will go to Mr.
15 Friedman.
16 MR. GOULD: Okay.
17 MR. KIENZ: What was the time on
18 Mr. Lanza?
19 MR. DUNN: 60 minutes.
20 MR. KIENZ: Thank you very much,
21 Mr. Dunn.
22 MR. GOULD: Okay.
23 MR. DUNN: I have just a couple
24 of questions.
25 Mr. Lanza, you testified that the
1 water company is going to bear the cost of
2 the extra 12-inch water main -- 12 inches
3 of water main that's needed?
4 THE WITNESS: The cost of
5 increasing from a 12-inch main to a 24-inch
6 main.
7 MR. DUNN: Is there an agreement
8 in effect with respect to that or is that
9 just discussions that you have had?
10 THE WITNESS: Just discussions.
11 We did the same type of thing up in
12 West New York. We expect it to go the same
13 way.
14 MR. DUNN: The 230 KVA
15 transmission lines, are they in the
16 right-of-way of the current Port Imperial
17 Boulevard?
19 MR. DUNN: They are not?
20 THE WITNESS: They are just west of
21 that.
22 MR. DUNN: Just west of the
23 right-of-way?
24 THE WITNESS: They are in the
25 Conrail easement, or the Conrail right-of
1 way. It's really New Jersey Transit, CSX,
2 formerly New Jersey Conrail right-of-way.
3 MR. DUNN: I take it it is
4 something that's not easily relocated. You
5 are not relocating it?
7 MR. DUNN: In any event, they
8 are not easily relocated?
10 MR. DUNN: Do you know anything
11 -- most of your gas service up to a certain
12 point relies on existing gas lines. Is
13 that correct?
14 THE WITNESS: From Baldwin Avenue
15 to Pershing Road just south of Pershing
16 Road.
17 MR. DUNN: Do you know anything
18 about the condition of those gas lines?
19 THE WITNESS: The gas company
20 indicates that those are adequate, they are
21 in fine shape. It's a plastic pipe. They
22 don't corrode. They don't.
23 MR. DUNN: Do you know when they
24 were installed?
25 THE WITNESS: I do not. I can find
1 that out.
2 MR. DUNN: Do you have any
3 correspondence from the gas company
4 indicating that they are adequate to
5 service, to be used, to service?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
7 MR. DUNN: Mr. Kienz, I take it
8 you are going to at some point, mark these,
9 this correspondence, as exhibits?
10 MR. KIENZ: Yes, I will, Mr.
11 Dunn.
12 MR. DUNN: I take it that, as
13 far as you know, New Jersey Transit intends
14 to improve the rail lines that provide
15 light rail service at least to the northern
16 part of this property?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am aware of
18 that.
19 MR. DUNN: Is there -- are there
20 drainage facilities required in association
21 with such a modification?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, with their
23 improvement. I have seen their preliminary
24 plans. They are planning on putting a
25 series of either concrete swales or regular
1 gravel line swales that can pass through
2 our site.
3 We have discussed with them the
4 possibility of actually having them connect
5 into some of the lines that we are going to
6 construct anyway, so we just -- we don't
7 increase the number of outfalls out to the
8 Hudson River. They have not finalized
9 their plans yet.
10 MR. DUNN: The question I have
11 for you then, are the lines that you have
12 designed for the drainage, stormwater
13 drainage of your site, adequate to take
14 stormwater drainage from Conrail, from the
15 light rail?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, we have designed
17 our system that way.
18 The exact connection points from
19 their system, they just are not finalized
20 from their end.
21 MR. DUNN: So that should they
22 need drainage facilities, your system is
23 adequate to take it from wherever they
24 connect you to the river?
25 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
1 MR. DUNN: The combined sewer
2 outflow, do I take it by releaving the
3 Baldwin Avenue pump station, that you would
4 be reducing the number of incidents under
5 which sanitary sewer overflow will be
6 required to the river?
7 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
8 MR. DUNN: And is your answer
9 the same with respect to the 18th Street
10 pump station?
11 THE WITNESS: That's correct also,
12 yes.
13 MR. DUNN: Okay. That's all.
14 MR. GOULD: Okay. Other
15 questions from board members?
16 I have got a couple.
17 The water distribution that you are
18 proposing, all of the existing pipes, you
19 had testimony, I believe, will be removed,
20 you said "abandoned."
21 Are they to be removed as well?
22 THE WITNESS: If they are in the
23 way of anything we are constructing, that
24 will be removed also.
25 If they are not in the way, there is
1 a couple of them across the Port Imperial
2 Boulevard on the railroad side. They are
3 ten-inch lines. They are fairly deep. If
4 they are not in the way of anything, there
5 is no reason to remove those, but most of
6 them will be removed because they will be
7 in the way.
8 MR. GOULD: And the water
9 distribution piping, the new piping is what
10 material?
11 THE WITNESS: Ductile iron pipe.
12 MR. GOULD: Okay.
13 MS. KRAVITZ: What was that?
14 MR. GOULD: Ductile iron pipe.
15 THE WITNESS: Ductile iron pipe.
16 MR. GOULD: Okay. That's all
17 related to water.
18 The stormwater, you said there was a
19 water quality structure at the outfalls.
20 Can you describe what that is,
21 explain that more in detail?
22 THE WITNESS: Certainly.
23 What we are proposing, it's a catch
24 basin, and it has a sump at the bottom of
25 it, in other words, a volume at the bottom
1 where settleable material, grid, and so
2 forth, will settle to the bottom.
3 There is also a hood on the outlet
4 pipe that discharges to the river, which
5 will prevent oil from getting out to the
6 river also. It's like an oil/water
7 separator, grid chamber, it's a hooded
8 inlet.
9 We use the same type of thing up in
10 West New York, and that's being constructed
11 right now. That's what we are proposing on
12 this site also.
13 MR. DUNN: Is that built to DEP
14 standards?
15 THE WITNESS: The DEP is still in
16 the process of reviewing this.
17 MR. GOULD: So -- I am sorry --
18 go ahead.
19 THE WITNESS: I was going to say
20 the water quality overall for the site, by
21 nature of its eliminating the 2000-car
22 parking lot, is improving. To go further
23 and put these structures at the discharge
24 points is another -- another safeguard, but
25 it's -- we think the DEP will go for that.
1 We are not sure.
2 MR. GOULD: Periodically you have
3 to get in there and clean out the oils, the
4 sludge, or whatever accumulates in there?
5 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
6 MR. GOULD: How frequent an
7 operation is that?
8 THE WITNESS: It's probably maybe
9 on the order of once a month will be my
10 guess.
11 Street sweeping will be part of the
12 stormwater management program, frequent
13 street sweeping, which is a method of
14 getting the grit, and so forth, off the
15 streets, the newer streets that there are,
16 so there would be less accumulation in
17 these structures, and that will be done at
18 least twice a year -- you know -- the
19 spring after the snow melts, in the fall
20 after the leaves fall off the trees, the
21 combination, I think, is a reasonable
22 approach the DEP will consider.
23 MR. GOULD: What do these things
24 look like from an outward appearance? Most
25 of it is below the ground?
1 THE WITNESS: It will look like the
2 regular inlet you have out in the street.
3 Everything else is below ground. You
4 wouldn't notice it, it's any different from
5 any inlets on the streets.
6 MR. GOULD: It's a solid grate?
7 It's actually perforated?
8 THE WITNESS: It's a grate, allows
9 water into it, like any of the street
10 grates you are used to seeing.
11 MR. GOULD: And that would be in
12 the vicinity of the walkway. I am just
13 trying to get a sense of where that is.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, it will just be
15 to the west of the walkway. That's where
16 the last structures end up being put, and
17 then the final pipe goes out to the river.
18 MR. GOULD: And that's,
19 basically, right at the waterline?
20 THE WITNESS: Correct.
21 MR. GOULD: Okay. Then you also
22 mentioned combined overflows and a netting
23 chamber?
25 MR. GOULD: Can you explain what
1 that is?
2 THE WITNESS: I will try.
3 That's a design that's being done by
4 the Sewerage Authority.
5 We are having -- we are providing
6 space for the Sewerage Authority to install
7 these netting chambers. They are on the
8 order of 25 feet by 50 feet for the larger
9 outfall I mentioned.
10 The smaller one is probably going to
11 be a ten by ten, or ten by 15 structure,
12 and, essentially, the series of nets, real
13 fine nets like microscreens almost that the
14 wastewater or the flows will come through,
15 and these nets will collect the solids and
16 the floatables that are making their way
17 out to the river right now.
18 It's a program the clean water act
19 requires. The state is trying to implement
20 and the Sewerage Authority has to comply
21 with, they need to find locations to put
22 these chambers in, and this project is
23 going to allow spaces for those nets to be
24 installed.
25 I don't have any more specifics of
1 the construction type. I know they are
2 fairly sophisticated and fairly expensive.
3 Q Is --
4 MR. GOULD: Is this also mostly
5 below grade?
6 THE WITNESS: It's all below grade.
7 MR. GOULD: A series of access
8 points to it or a big grade?
9 THE WITNESS: They will -- there
10 most likely will be an access hatch, a set
11 of doors that will be in a parking lot or a
12 grassed area. The doors will be strong
13 enough for vehicles to drive across them.
14 Opening up periodically for cleaning
15 of the nets, I don't know what the process
16 is to do that.
17 MR. GOULD: That's work that is
18 not being undertaken by the developer per
19 se?
21 MR. GOULD: By the Sewer
22 Authority?
23 THE WITNESS: The Sewer Authority.
24 It's the line, we are not tapping into
25 those lines at all. We have nothing to do
1 with them except to give them space for the
2 netting chambers.
3 MR. GOULD: Okay. All right. In
4 terms of sanitary lines, you mentioned pump
5 stations?
7 MR. GOULD: Are these buildings?
8 Are they small sheds? What are they like?
9 THE WITNESS: The pump stations are
10 underground structures that will contain
11 the pumps that will convey the sewerage to
12 the treatment plant.
13 We have one pump station that we are
14 proposing on our site, and that will be an
15 underground structure, concrete structure,
16 but right nearby it will be a small
17 building, probably brick facing, small, 15
18 by 15, something like that, similar to the
19 two that we constructed in West New York
20 right along Port Imperial Boulevard to
21 house the emergency generator for the pump
22 station. That is -- that has to be above
23 ground. It's a building that will blend
24 into the architecture of the nearby
25 buildings.
1 MR. GOULD: Is that shown on the
2 drawings where that will be located?
3 THE WITNESS: The pump station is
4 shown as just box for now. In that
5 vicinity will be another box that will be
6 the building.
7 MR. GOULD: And I think you
8 probably partially just answered my next
9 question, which was, what happens if a pump
10 breaks?
11 THE WITNESS: Or the power goes
12 out?
13 MR. GOULD: Or there is a power
14 failure?
15 THE WITNESS: Emergency generator.
16 If the pump breaks, the pumps will have at
17 least one extra pump in case one pump does
18 fail. That's a requirement of the state,
19 to have redundancy in those pump stations.
20 MR. GOULD: That's an in-line
21 pump that's just ready to go?
22 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
23 MR. GOULD: It doesn't have to be
24 manually switched over or anything?
25 THE WITNESS: No. It will happen
1 automatically.
2 MR. GOULD: Okay. And doesn't
3 any of the sanitary flow from the West New
4 York property flow into Weehawken?
5 THE WITNESS: No, it doesn't. All
6 the flows from West New York go to the West
7 New York treatment plant.
8 MR. GOULD: So there would be
9 nothing coming across the border there?
10 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
11 MR. GOULD: And the Baldwin
12 Avenue pump station, I think you said,
13 remains in operation but at a much lower
14 capacity?
15 THE WITNESS: It will be feeling
16 much less flow to it, so it can operate
17 without overflowing.
18 MR. GOULD: Does that pump
19 station get any renovations to it? Is that
20 something that the Sewer Authority is going
21 to do as part of this work?
22 THE WITNESS: We had discussed with
23 the Sewerage Authority the possibility of
24 using the Baldwin pump station for the
25 first phase of construction, which was the
1 brownstones, and we have since abandoned
2 that idea.
3 We will be just going directly to
4 our pump station. We are still fine lining
5 the details for that.
6 What they had asked for, though, had
7 we gone that route, was to have a standby
8 pump at the station just in case there was
9 a failure of a pump, because there isn't
10 any redundancy any longer for wet weather.
11 Both pump -- both pumps operate whenever it
12 rains. If one of those goes out they are
13 not operating well at all.
14 They asked us to replace a couple of
15 check valves, minor things, but we have
16 since -- the way this project is going --
17 we are going to -- right to the new
18 treatment plant from our pump station now.
19 MR. GOULD: Will that pump
20 station only be serving properties off-site
21 not part of this proposal at that time?
22 THE WITNESS: Our new pump station?
23 MR. GOULD: The Baldwin Avenue.
24 THE WITNESS: The Baldwin Avenue
25 will serve only things that are off-site.
1 Right now what goes to it is Lincoln
2 Harbor, the Lincoln Harbor development goes
3 into the Baldwin Avenue pump station, as
4 well as the Pershing Avenue flows, which,
5 as I said, will be redirected into our pump
6 station, just the Lincoln Harbor flows
7 after this project is developed.
8 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
10 MR. GOULD: Any other board
11 questions?
12 MR. DUNN: I had a couple more.
13 They are primarily directed to Mr. Kienz.
14 The maintenance -- the maintenance
15 of the facilities for street sweeping and
16 for water quality, are they things that are
17 covered by your reciprocal easement or are
18 they things that are going to be dedicated
19 to the municipality?
20 MR. KIENZ: I believe -- and I
21 think we had testified to this on the
22 original that we came in the last time --
23 this will be part of the master
24 association, going to be deed restricted,
25 and there will be a master organization
1 that will be controlling them, Mr. Dunn.
2 MR. DUNN: All right. They are
3 not going to be dedicated to the public or
4 to the public?
5 MR. KIENZ: No.
6 MR. DUNN: Okay. Now, the 18th,
7 new pump station, is it anticipated that
8 will be dedicated to the North Hudson Sewer
9 Authority?
10 MR. KIENZ: They are -- they
11 generally take them. That's my
12 understanding, yes. They generally like to
13 get them. Let's put it that way.
14 MR. DUNN: Okay. Thank you.
15 MR. GOULD: Okay. Thank you, Mr.
16 Lanza.
17 THE WITNESS: You are welcome.
18 MR. GOULD: Mr. Kienz, anything
19 you would like to add?
20 MR. KIENZ: Now we are going to
21 go to Mr. Friedman.
22 MR. GOULD: Mr. Segreto, would
23 you like to continue with your
24 cross-examination of Mr. Friedman?
25 MR. KIENZ: Indeed.
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
2 M I C H A E L F R I E D M A N, previously sworn.
3 MR. DUNN: He remains under
4 oath.
5 MR. KIENZ: How much time is
6 left?
7 MR. DUNN: It's now 20 after
8 nine, and there are 115 minutes left to
9 cross-examination of Mr. Friedman.
11 MR. SEGRETO: I don't want to
12 remonstrate, and I hope that maybe I will
13 be finished within an hour and 15 minutes,
14 but --
15 THE PUBLIC: Can't hear.
16 THE PUBLIC: We can't hear you.
17 MR. GOULD: Is that on?
18 THE PUBLIC: Give him a
19 microphone.
20 MR. SEGRETO: I trust that everyone
21 can hear now.
22 I don't want to remonstrate or
23 quarrel about the hour and 15 minutes. It
24 may very well be that I will finish, but I
25 said once before, and I will repeat it now
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 on the record, and I won't keep saying it,
2 I believe the cases say that a board cannot
3 set an arbitrary time limitation of a
4 multiple of the direct examination.
5 As a matter of fact, the case points
6 out that an expert on direct can give a net
7 opinion which takes him a minute to
8 express, but yet the cross-examination as
9 to the predicates for it could be much more
10 extensive, so I think the criteria which
11 the cases have set, as long as --
12 MR. GOULD: Mr. Segreto, please,
13 continue.
14 MR. SEGRETO: I believe the cases
15 said that as long as the cross-examination
16 is relevant to the direct examination, it
17 would be capricious not to permit it, but,
18 again, hopefully, I won't exceed the time
19 limitation.
20 Q Mr. Friedman, you were kind enough
21 to be host to me yesterday for inspection of
22 documents.
23 Do you recall that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q We were together for several hours,
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 and you had a room filled with documents.
2 Do you remember that?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q And I went through one of the
5 documents except for the 18 boxes that were over
6 by the window.
7 Do you remember that, too?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q And I marked off and put yellow
10 stickers on all of the documents in the file that
11 I wanted you to bring here tonight.
12 Do you have them with you?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q Will you let me have them.
15 A Where would you like them?
16 Q Put them over here.
17 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, am I to
18 understand you have got everything that you
19 wanted from Mr. Friedman's documents? You
20 have no further need to inspect them?
21 MR. SEGRETO: Well, I averted to 18
22 boxes by the window, and I hope I correctly
23 represent what Mr. Friedman indicated about
24 them.
25 He indicated that most of them, with
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 the exception of a couple of boxes, contain
2 soil investigation reports and laboratory
3 analysis reports, almost all of which have
4 not been reviewed or analyzed by his
5 office.
6 With respect to those, I have not
7 inspected them because they have not been
8 reviewed or considered by the witness, and,
9 obviously, he could not in any of the
10 direct testimony which he gave in this
11 proceeding have relied upon the documents,
12 but there will come a time when they will
13 do their analysis, and it is my
14 understanding under the agreement they will
15 be submitting supplemental reports which
16 will contain an analysis.
17 At that point, and I suspect that's
18 going to happen while these proceedings
19 continue, when they have done their
20 analysis and have submitted the results of
21 that to the state, we, obviously, will want
22 an opportunity to review the soil logs,
23 their analysis, the laboratory reports,
24 their analysis and the reports which they
25 will generate to the DEP, but with regard
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 to what was there in which the witness has
2 used as a predicate for his EIS report and
3 his testimony, I have marked off, and I
4 will, if I find that any of the documents
5 that I marked off and I have the prudence
6 to pick a list of what I put the yellow
7 sheets on, that through any inadvertence
8 any of them are not here, I will, of
9 course, bring that to the counsel's
10 attention.
11 MR. DUNN: I understand.
12 As far as the 18 boxes are
13 concerned, until they become the subject of
14 direct examination to this board you
15 reserve the right to examine them as and
16 when they become the subject of a direct
17 examination to this board.
18 MR. SEGRETO: Well, let us assume
19 that they grind out a report which they
20 submit to DEP in accordance with the
21 agreement as part of their remediation of
22 the plan, since he has talked about the
23 remediation plan and has already expressed
24 some conclusions, even before they have
25 analyzed the soil datum and the laboratory
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 reports, obviously, when they get to that
2 point where they have done the analysis, I
3 am going to be asking for copies of those
4 reports, and I will then want to
5 cross-examine him in connection with those
6 reports, and I will want the opportunity to
7 have access to the factual predicates for
8 them, but, apart from that, I am prepared
9 to do my cross-examination within the
10 parameters of what I have articulated.
11 Q Now, Mr. Friedman --
12 MR. GOULD: Hold on, Mr. Kienz.
13 MR. KIENZ: There are a couple of
14 assumptions that are being made. I don't
15 necessarily agree, in fact, they are
16 factual.
17 First off, there are 18 boxes.
18 Second, they are being analyzed.
19 Third, those are documents that go
20 to DEP.
21 We were requested to provide them to
22 this board for informational purposes.
23 Mr. Friedman in his testimony gave
24 background information, but, quite frankly,
25 it's a DEP document. You asked for it for
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 informational purposes. We are not going
2 to necessarily have that for
3 cross-examination. When that's done, it's
4 done. That's not going to necessarily be
5 the subject of any hearings.
6 Mr. Friedman has given his qualified
7 professional testimony. He has stated it
8 on the record. There are other agencies to
9 review it.
10 As a matter of fact, this board
11 hired two experts to review documents such
12 as this to make sure the testimony is
13 right.
14 I am not going to allow the board to
15 be mislead and in the springtime we may be
16 back. The clock is running on this
17 application. This application needs to be
18 done quickly because the clock has a 95-day
19 approval period, so I don't want anyone to
20 be misled.
21 I am just stating that for the
22 board.
23 MR. DUNN: I am not sure it's a
24 95-day approval period. I think you
25 applied for a variance.
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. KIENZ: Even if it's 120
2 days, the clock still expires on February
3 11th at 120 days.
4 MR. SEGRETO: Let's worry about the
5 clock when the clock runs.
6 Right now I would like to do my
7 cross-examination.
8 MR. DUNN: I understand, and I
9 just don't want to have you -- you don't
10 need the 18 boxes to cross-examine tonight
11 --
12 MR. SEGRETO: Absolutely not.
13 MR. DUNN: -- based upon the
14 testimony that has already been given.
15 That's correct? Is that correct?
16 MR. SEGRETO: That's correct.
17 MR. DUNN: Let him go ahead.
18 Q Now, Mr. Friedman, the documents
19 which you have produced contain the work product
20 of your office that your colleagues --
21 A The documents I produced were the
22 documents requested yesterday, and they represent
23 a portion of the reference materials cited in the
24 Environmental Impact Statement.
25 Q There was some other reference
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 material that was on your list that I didn't ask
2 to look at. Isn't that so?
3 A It is correct.
4 Q Didn't ask you to bring tonight. I
5 am talking about the things that I asked you to
6 bring tonight and that you now have in these two
7 nice boxes that are right next to me.
8 Is that correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And this contains source material
11 and datum which were the premises upon which you
12 prepared and your colleagues prepared the
13 Environmental Impact Statement which has been
14 submitted to this board. Isn't that so?
15 A That's correct.
16 To be precise, it is information that you
17 requested which I brought with me this evening
18 that are not cited in the Environmental Impact
19 Statement.
20 Q All right. Now, with regard to the
21 soil investigation reports, there are several
22 boxes there in your office containing those, some
23 of those reports, but they have not been analyzed
24 by your staff yet. Isn't that so?
25 A We are referring to the 18 plus or
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 minus boxes?
2 Q That's correct?
3 A As I indicated to you yesterday, as
4 I believe indicated to the board last week, some
5 of that material has been reviewed, a minor amount
6 of it.
7 Specifically related to Lot B, the vast
8 majority of it has not been reviewed or is in the
9 process of being reviewed but has not been
10 calculated.
11 Q You have not reviewed the vast
12 majority of the soil investigation reports.
13 Similarly, you have not reviewed the vast majority
14 of the laboratory analysis reports. Isn't that
15 so?
16 A I don't know that one can
17 distinguish -- I am referring to the laboratory
18 results. The majority of the materials in the
19 boxes that you are referring to, that I am
20 referring to are known as laboratory data banks.
21 Q Since you have not reviewed and the
22 staff has not reviewed the vast majority of those
23 reports, which are in the several boxes that we
24 referred to, I take it that you do not know what
25 contaminants the laboratory analysis reports,
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 which have not been examined, tell you were found
2 in the extant subsurface conditions. Is that
3 true?
4 A No, that's not true.
5 Q Are you suggesting to me that you
6 somehow are able to tell us what is in the
7 laboratory analysis reports, the vast majority of
8 which have not been reviewed by your staff?
9 A I really don't want to suggest
10 anything to you.
11 What I will state to you in response to
12 your question, I say to the board and the public,
13 restate, is that magically one day 18 boxes don't
14 get analyzed and produced as a report.
15 Over a period of weeks and/or months, the
16 staff, my staff reviews information, and so for
17 much of that data work is in process. There have
18 been no tabulations of that work.
19 Clearly there have been no submissions
20 other than that which you saw yesterday for
21 yourself, much that we have here this evening, so
22 that work has not been completed, but in response
23 to your question, I am familiar -- generally
24 familiar with the kinds of information that have
25 come back from the laboratory, and that's how I
Friedman - Cross - Segreto
1 was able to make responses to many of your
2 questions.
3 Q How can you be generally familiar
4 with the contents of documents which the vast
5 majority of which you have not reviewed? How does
6 one do that? Is there some kind of osmosis
7 process that you environmentalists use?
8 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I am
9 going to object.
10 MR. SEGRETO: That was perjorative.
11 I will take it back. It was a little
12 dramatic. I am sorry.
13 Q Tell me how one --
14 MR. KIENZ: Accepted.
15 Q -- without looking at the vast
16 majority of boxes, is able to get a general
17 conclusion that he knows what is in them?
18 A I think you have either misconstrued
19 or I haven't clarified my prior answers correctly,
20 or to certainly such that you can understand them.
21 There has been no final tabulation of the
22 data. There has been no narrative documentation
23 of the data. There has been a perusal of the
24 information or some of the information by my staff
25 as it comes back from the laboratory.
Friedman - Cross - Segreto

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