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WEEHAWKEN PLANNING BOARD HEARING
JANUARY 6, 2000
FULL TRANSCRIPT
PAGES
87 TO 127 (end)

Witne
ss Laura Staines and Michael Giardino

Professional Planner & Architect
Direct Testimony

C
ross-Examination by James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on
J
anuary 6, 2000.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 3 different web pages.

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87
1 MR. DUNN: Let the witness
2 answer the question.
3 MR. SEGRETO: She is not answering
4 the question.
5 She is using a phrase, which is
6 absolutely meaningless, "mixing apples and
7 oranges."
8 MR. DUNN: Please let the
9 witness answer the question.
10 A Mr. Segreto, you are comparing the
11 residential population of the existing Weehawken
12 with a combination of the residential and
13 employees of the new PD application.
14 You have neglected to add in the employees
15 of Weehawken as well.
16 Q All right. Tell me how many
17 employees there are now in Weehawken.
18 A My recollection from the Fiscal
19 Impact Report is going to be approximately 7500.
20 Q 7500?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So now we have a population of 12
23 five.
24 Some of them, are they going to be leaving
25 during the day to go somewhere else?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
88
1 A I am sure some of them will be
2 leaving.
3 Q Do you know what that number is?
4 A No, I don't.
5 Q And those 7500, plus the net number
6 that don't go to work, that don't go to school,
7 somewhere other than here, they are going to be
8 the entirety of the town, with the exception of
9 this 90 acres, and on this 90 acres there is going
10 to be the population equivalency working and
11 living. Right?
12 A I don't understand "population
13 equivalency."
14 We have 7500 employees and approximately
15 12,000 residents per your description of Weehawken
16 and 35 --
17 Q That's 19 on the whole town less the
18 number of people that leave the town during the
19 day to go to work?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Do you have any idea what that
22 number is?
23 A No.
24 Q Where do you get the one about the
25 7,000 who work here?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
89
1 A I glean that off the Fiscal Impact
2 Report.
3 Q How many of those people, those
4 7,000 people who work here also live here? I
5 don't want you to double dip and count them twice,
6 as a liver and a worker.
7 MR. DUNN: Either with the
8 apples or the oranges.
9 MR. SEGRETO: Pardon.
10 MR. DUNN: Either with the
11 apples or the oranges.
12 MR. SEGRETO: You are an
13 autoerotic. You turn yourself on by the
14 comments you make to me.
15 MR. DUNN: What did you say? I
16 didn't understand what you said.
17 MR. SEGRETO: I beg your pardon?
18 MR. DUNN: I didn't understand
19 what you said.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Oh.
21 MR. DUNN: What you called me.
22 MR. SEGRETO: I didn't call you
23 anything.
24 I said you seem to be turning
25 yourself on with words.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
90
1 A Mr. Segreto, no, I do not know the
2 number of employees or residents that remain or
3 leave the site in upper Weehawken or do I know
4 that number for the planned development either.
5 Q Under NJSA40:55D-2, which are the
6 purposes of the Municipal Land Use Act, is one of
7 them to avoid the overconcentration of people on
8 the property?
9 A I don't recall that specific
10 paragraph. Do you have a copy of it? I don't
11 remember.
12 Q You don't remember what's in the
13 Land Use Act?
14 A I don't remember it.
15 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, she
16 answered the questions.
17 THE WITNESS: Those paragraphs.
18 MR. DUNN: There is really no
19 reason to ask the same question again.
20 MR. SEGRETO: I guess I am the only
21 one in the room who is startled by a
22 planner who doesn't know what the purposes
23 of the zoning are.
24 MR. DUNN: Is there a question
25 or an objection there?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
91
1 MR. SEGRETO: No, I am just
2 engaging in dialogue with you because you
3 have been doing that with me.
4 Q Now, this new ferry terminal, how
5 many parking spaces is it going to have?
6 A We were providing 1500 parking
7 spaces for the service of the ferry.
8 Q 1600?
9 A 1500.
10 Q 1500?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And the existing one has how many?
13 A I believe it was approximately 2300.
14 The exact number I don't recall.
15 Q So you have got 2200 parking spaces
16 for the existing ferry. You are going to make the
17 new ferry an expansion. It's going to serve
18 substantially more, and you are going to reduce
19 the number of parking spaces by what, 70 percent?
20 A 30 percent.
21 Q 30 percent. From 2200 down to 1500?
22 A Right.
23 Q And tell me how you plan to manage
24 that increased number of uses -- usage and reduce
25 the number of parking spaces. How does one do
Staines - Cross - Segreto
92
1 that?
2 A We testified to the fact that there
3 would be an additional population on-site of
4 approximately 3500 residents, many of whom will be
5 leaving the site to work elsewhere or, perhaps,
6 utilize employment opportunities on-site.
7 There are also to be expected approximately
8 8,000 employees. We expect a number of them would
9 be utilizing the ferry as well. That's the
10 primary reason to expand the ferry operation and
11 locate it in a certain position. Those
12 individuals should not utilize parking.
13 Q Who did the analysis of the parking
14 requirements?
15 A For the ferry terminal?
16 Q Yes.
17 A That was provided to us by the
18 applicant for the ferry terminal.
19 Q Did the applicant do those
20 calculations or did a planner or an engineer do
21 it?
22 A That I don't know.
23 Q But whoever gave those numbers to
24 you as the applicant -- is that Mr. Goldberg who
25 gave that to you?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
93
1 A No.
2 Q Who?
3 A The operator of the ferry terminal.
4 Q Who is that?
5 A ARCORP properties -- I am sorry --
6 New York Waterways.
7 Q Did they give it to you in writing?
8 Pardon?
9 A I am certain that there would be
10 something in writing at some point, but it was
11 verbal for much of the early part of the plan.
12 Q I took the trouble to spend several
13 hours reviewing your files. I didn't see any
14 documentation from New York Waterways or ARCORP
15 Properties about any rational calculations for
16 parking spaces.
17 Do you recall having seen something in
18 writing from them?
19 A No, calculations, no.
20 Q What did you get from them? Just a
21 net number?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q So, I take it, you don't know if the
24 projected 1500 is adequate from a planning point
25 of view?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
94
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And you relied exclusively upon a
3 number which one of the clients gave to you?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Now, do you know what lot and block
6 this new ferry facility and the parking lot is
7 going to be?
8 A No, I don't recall.
9 Q Pardon?
10 A I do not recall.
11 Q Do you know what the square footage
12 of the existing ferry facility is?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q Do you know what the square footage
15 of the proposed ferry facility is going to be?
16 A It's approximately 40,000 square
17 feet.
18 Q How is it that you are able to
19 approximate the size of a proposed ferry facility
20 that doesn't exist and that with an existing ferry
21 facility you don't have any idea what its square
22 footage is?
23 A I was advised of the square footage
24 of the proposed facility by the architect, who is
25 currently designing it.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
95
1 Q Did you ever see any of the surveys
2 of the existing property?
3 A Which property? The entire PD?
4 Q Where the ferry terminal is.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Doesn't it tell you what the square
7 footage is?
8 A No.
9 Q But you have seen the survey,
10 haven't you? It's in your file. I saw it in your
11 file. It's there, isn't it?
12 A I have a land plan that identifies
13 the location, but then -- it doesn't distinguish
14 any square footage.
15 Q Doesn't it have a scale on it? You
16 already said that.
17 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, he is
18 badgering the witness.
19 A Mr. Segreto, we don't scale
20 drawings.
21 Q Now, this particular application
22 deals with a whole series of discrete, separate
23 lots. Isn't that so?
24 A No, this application deals with one
25 entire planned development in excess of 200 acres.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
96
1 Q Well, aren't they separate lots?
2 A They are identified on tax maps as
3 separate lots, but they are in the application of
4 one unified parcel.
5 Q Well, doesn't the application
6 specifically say Block 36.05, Lot 1.01; Block
7 36.05, Lot 2.01, et cetera, et cetera, and list
8 the individual lots?
9 A Yes, by reference.
10 Q Have they ever been consolidated?
11 A In what fashion?
12 Q Well, you are a planner. You tell
13 me how one consolidates existing lots.
14 A All the lots --
15 Q I am sorry?
16 A All the lots are in single ownership
17 in front of the board. They are a planned
18 development application.
19 Q Aren't you aware of the fact that
20 some of the lots are owned by Romulus, and some of
21 the lots are owned by Port Imperial South?
22 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
23 Q Separate entities.
24 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object
25 to this line of questioning.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
97
1 We went through this at the last
2 hearing, but, in addition, in order to help
3 make this an efficacious and effective
4 cross-examination, I will represent to Mr.
5 Segreto and to the board, that after the PD
6 application is processed and approved by
7 the board, it's clear under your ordinance,
8 and it's clear from a common-sense
9 standpoint, that we are going to need to
10 come before the board and seek subdivision
11 approval so that individual lots, in fact,
12 reflect the action of the board.
13 It is silly, absolutely silly to do
14 it at this time, so whatever lots are out
15 there, they are out there.
16 It's all owned. We represented it.
17 Mr. Segreto is aware that we represented
18 the lots in the plans so that we can give
19 notice to all people within 200 feet of a
20 parcel and begin this process and give the
21 board the jurisdictional basis to hear it.
22 There is going to be a subdivision
23 application before you.
24 Can we apply for it now? No, it
25 would be a waste of the board's time, so I
Staines - Cross - Segreto
98
1 will make the proffer that whatever action
2 this board takes, it would be my
3 recommendation that it be subject to us
4 seeking subdivision approval on the
5 application to reflect the action that you
6 do take. I think that will save a fair
7 amount of time and dialogue.
8 MR. DUNN: Well, maybe it will
9 and maybe it won't.
10 That certainly is the way the board
11 has acted with respect to previous planned
12 development applications.
13 We accept your proffer, but Mr.
14 Segreto is free to ask whatever questions
15 he wants.
16 Q Now, counsel has indicated that
17 there are separate lots and blocks and that the
18 lots sometime in the future, they are going to do
19 something by a subdivision.
20 You are aware of the fact that these have
21 not been resubdivided into a one consolidated or
22 couple of consolidated lots. You know that, don't
23 you?
24 A Correct. I believe we just heard
25 that testimony.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
99
1 Q Now, there is going to be specific
2 development on each one of these separate lots,
3 isn't there?
4 A Yes. There will be development,
5 yes.
6 Q You are aware of the fact that there
7 are use standards in the Planned Unit Development
8 Ordinance?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And they refer to certain uses
11 permitted in zone classification districts. Isn't
12 that so?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And also bulk standards in the
15 Planned Unit Development. Isn't that so?
16 MR. KIENZ: I object.
17 We were here at the last meeting.
18 This is redundant.
19 MR. DUNN: He can ask it.
20 Q And you are aware that there are
21 bulk standards that -- that are applicable to the
22 planned development. Isn't that so?
23 A To the planned development.
24 Correct.
25 Q And those bulk standards incorporate
Staines - Cross - Segreto
100
1 by reference Schedule 2. Isn't that so?
2 A I believe it's Schedule A, if I am
3 not mistaken.
4 Q Schedule A. Uh-huh.
5 And that provides a multitude of standards,
6 doesn't it?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Such as lot size?
9 A Correct.
10 Q Lot width.
11 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
12 A Mr. Segreto, I should refer to the
13 ordinance before answering that question.
14 Since I believe you were talking about lot
15 requirements, yes, there are lot sizes, yard
16 setbacks, coverages, et cetera.
17 Q What page are you looking at?
18 A Schedule A. It's at the back of the
19 book, Pages 24 - 31.
20 Q And there is a maximum density
21 innumerated. Isn't that so?
22 A Yes, where the illustrated zones
23 there is, yes.
24 Q And those density figures are
25 different for different zones. Isn't that so?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
101
1 A Yes. That's correct.
2 Q And there is a -- they are different
3 permitted uses?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And there are different permitted
6 conditional uses?
7 A Those are not identified in this
8 particular schedule.
9 Q Well, they are, nonetheless,
10 identified in the planned unit development
11 section, aren't they?
12 A No. They are identified in their
13 own respective specs of the zone.
14 Q You don't think there is any
15 reference to conditional uses in the planned unit
16 development ordinance?
17 A Yes, there are references to
18 conditional uses.
19 Q And there are also minimum loss size
20 standards that are applicable in this planned unit
21 development?
22 A Mr. Segreto, I believe you mean the
23 planned development zone, planned development
24 district.
25 Q Now you know what we are talking
Staines - Cross - Segreto
102
1 about.
2 Are there minimum lot-size standards?
3 A No.
4 Q There are not?
5 A No.
6 Q In Schedule A, does Schedule A have
7 minimal lot-size standards?
8 A Schedule A is referencing B2, R1,
9 R3, town homes and R4 zones.
10 Q And B1's, B2's, B3's, industrial
11 park, special waterfront, et cetera?
12 A That's right.
13 I don't believe this schedule makes any
14 reference to the PD zone. That needs to be
15 referred back to the bulk of the ordinance.
16 Q Now I will ask you again, does
17 Schedule A have minimum lot-size standards?
18 A Yes, it does.
19 Q And the standards are different for
20 different zone classifications. Isn't that so?
21 A Yes. That's correct.
22 Q And Schedule A has minimum lot-width
23 standards?
24 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
25 MR. DUNN: What's your
Staines - Cross - Segreto
103
1 objection, Mr. Kienz?
2 MR. KIENZ: This is redundant.
3 This is the fourth time -- third or fourth
4 -- fourth time now that we have gone
5 through this.
6 MR. DUNN: I am going to rule
7 that the questions are irrelevant based on
8 Section 23-10d of the planned development
9 ordinance, which says, "Plot and lot sizes
10 and dimensions and the location and height
11 of buildings, if meeting the standards of
12 this chapter, may be freely disposed and
13 arranged provided the construction conforms
14 to a site plan approved by the planning
15 board."
16 I will rule that the question is
17 irrelevant.
18 MR. SEGRETO: You are not going to
19 let me ask anything about bulk standards?
20 MR. KIENZ: I am going to raise
21 the objection.
22 She answered the bulk standard issue
23 a number of times. She also cited the
24 section that Mr. Dunn just referred to.
25 MR. DUNN: There are separate
Staines - Cross - Segreto
104
1 bulk standards for the planned development
2 ordinance, and you are perfectly free to
3 ask questions about those, things such as
4 floor area and height and prohibited
5 locations of buildings, and minimum
6 distance between buildings and common open
7 space, and all of those things, Palisades
8 reservation area.
9 All of those are bulk standards in
10 the bulk standard ordinance. You are free
11 to ask anything you want about those, Mr.
12 Segreto, if that's what's relevant.
13 Q Do you have your copy of the
14 ordinance?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Would you turn to Page 2378.
17 Do you see the second paragraph, the
18 Subsection d dealing with lot and bulk
19 regulations?
20 And it says, "Except when otherwise varied
21 by the planning board for a planned development in
22 accordance with the criteria and standards of this
23 chapter, the minimum bulk and lot regulations
24 shall be as set forth in Schedule A attached to
25 and made a part of this chapter."
Staines - Cross - Segreto
105
1 Do you see that?
2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q And I have been asking you questions
4 about the bulk standards in Schedule A. Right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And where it says, "Except when
7 otherwise varied by the planning board," do you
8 see that?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q That means a variance granted by the
11 planning board, doesn't it, "varied"?
12 A No, it doesn't.
13 MR. DUNN: No, it does not.
14 MR. SEGRETO: Counsel, why don't
15 you please wait. I am asking her. You are
16 not under oath.
17 MR. DUNN: You are asking --
18 MR. SEGRETO: If you want to
19 testify after she is finished, you get
20 under oath, and I will ask you some
21 questions.
22 I am asking her what her
23 understanding of the word "varied" is as
24 contained in the ordinance, and I don't
25 need your interpretation of it. I need her
Staines - Cross - Segreto
106
1 answer to my question.
2 MR. DUNN: It calls for a legal
3 conclusion on the part of the witness.
4 MR. SEGRETO: No, it doesn't. She
5 is a planner.
6 MR. DUNN: It calls for a legal
7 conclusion on the part of the witness, and
8 the objection is sustained.
9 MR. SEGRETO: Why did you object
10 when she said the bulk standards don't
11 apply? She was expressing a legal
12 conclusion, but you like her legal
13 conclusion, so you let it go by.
14 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, the
15 entire planned development ordinance deals
16 with modifications of the bulk standards in
17 connection with the planned development.
18 That's the ordinance.
19 MR. SEGRETO: It's your ordinance,
20 and you do not speak for the ordinance.
21 The ordinance speaks for itself.
22 It says, "Except when otherwise
23 varied by the planning board for a planned
24 development in accordance with the criteria
25 and standards of this chapter, the minimum
Staines - Cross - Segreto
107
1 bulk and lot regulations shall be as set
2 forth in Schedule A attached to and made a
3 part of this chapter," and my question is,
4 what is her understanding of that word
5 "varied."
6 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
7 MR. DUNN: She may answer the
8 question.
9 MR. KIENZ: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: Perhaps the use of
11 the word "varied" in this case makes
12 allowances for the planning board to take
13 into consideration the first paragraph,
14 which states -- we just heard testimony --
15 "The plot and lot sizes and dimensions and
16 the location and height of buildings, if
17 meeting the standards of this chapter may
18 be freely disposed and arranged," et
19 cetera.
20 Q How does a board vary from standards
21 in an ordinance?
22 A These are the standards in the
23 ordinance, Mr. Segreto.
24 Q Well, isn't a variance that is
25 granted by the board, permission to vary from the
Staines - Cross - Segreto
108
1 terms of the ordinance? Is that what a variance
2 is?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And this says that unless the
5 planning board varies -- approves a varried -- it
6 says "varied," you have to comply with Schedule A.
7 Doesn't it say that?
8 A In this particular chapter, in this
9 particular paragraph, I believe, it states that
10 these may be allowed by the planning board taking
11 into consideration the first paragraph on Page
12 2377 conforming with all the construction
13 standards in Chapter XXII.
14 Q Well, this particular section
15 clearly says that the planning board can't permit
16 the applicant to vary from those standards.
17 Right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, are you familiar with the Land
20 Use Act, which talks about how variances are
21 granted?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And doesn't the Land Use Act both in
24 40:55D-70, one and two, as well as 40:55D-70D say
25 that before a planning board or a board of
Staines - Cross - Segreto
109
1 adjustment can grant a variance, i.e., a departure
2 from the standards of the ordinance, the applicant
3 must meet its burden of proof as to the
4 affirmative and negative criteria?
5 Isn't that what the Land Use Act says?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you would agree that before a
8 planning board can permit an applicant to vary
9 from the terms of the ordinance, the applicant
10 must meet the affirmative and negative criteria as
11 defined in the Land Use Act? Isn't that so?
12 A In the various elements of the Land
13 Use Act. That's correct.
14 Q Now I am going to ask you again,
15 isn't it true that in Schedule A there are maximum
16 density standards, bulk standards, minimum lot
17 standards, minimum lot-width standards, minimum
18 front-yard standards, minimum rear-yard standards,
19 minimum side-yard standards, maximum coverage and
20 maximum-height standards? Are there such
21 standards in Schedule A?
22 A For all zones with the exclusion of
23 the PD zone.
24 Q Pardon?
25 A For all zones with the exclusion of
Staines - Cross - Segreto
110
1 the PD zone, which is referenced.
2 Q But doesn't the section, which I
3 gave you before, say that unless you get the
4 approval of the board to vary from the terms of
5 Schedule A, Schedule A applies?
6 A It also says, "Plot and lot sizes
7 and dimensions and the locations and height of
8 buildings if meeting the standards of this
9 chapter, may be freely disposed and arranged..."
10 Q I know all about that, and that's
11 done by their permitting you to vary. Right?
12 A By following the regulations of this
13 particular section of the zoning ordinance, which
14 is fairly extensive, it has its own regulations
15 for lot size, building setbacks, heights, FAR,
16 density, et cetera.
17 Q Isn't every lot in this property, in
18 addition to being in a planned development
19 classification, also in a specific district
20 classification?
21 A The underlying zone does have a zone
22 representative district. Correct.
23 Q All right. So if we want to look at
24 what the ordinance says, we look at the bulk
25 standard for that lot for the zone in which it is
Staines - Cross - Segreto
111
1 located in the underlying zone, and unless the
2 planning board permits you to vary from those
3 standards, you have to comply with those
4 standards. Is that so?
5 A Mr. Segreto, there are standards
6 that specifically apply to the PD zone. They are
7 specifically referenced, and they are
8 significantly different from those in Schedule A,
9 and they are purposely identified as the PD zone.
10 Q Well, this -- has the applicant, to
11 your knowledge, made a request from the board for
12 permission to vary from the standards contained in
13 Schedule A?
14 A It's irrelevant.
15 Q I didn't ask you if it's relevant.
16 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
17 Q Is there such an application?
18 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
19 Don't answer.
20 And I am objecting because we have
21 gone around this now seven times.
22 She answered it. I have answered
23 it. Board counsel has answered it.
24 This section cannot be any clearer.
25 Mr. Dunn cited the specific sections.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
112
1 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto can use
2 his time to ask the witness whatever he
3 wants.
4 The objection is overruled.
5 Q Do you remember the question?
6 A No.
7 Q Neither do I.
8 MR. SEGRETO: Could the court
9 reporter read it to her.
10 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads
11 as requested.)
12 MR. KIENZ: We have heard the
13 question.
14 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no,
15 there have been no variance requests.
16 Q Now, other than the provision in
17 40:55D-70C and D of the Land Use Act, do you as a
18 planner know any other provision in the Land Use
19 Act which gives a planning board or a board of
20 adjustment the power to vary from the terms of the
21 zoning ordinance?
22 A Mr. Segreto, the zoning ordinance is
23 very clear to me.
24 Q I am not asking you that, please.
25 I am asking you if you know of any section
Staines - Cross - Segreto
113
1 in the Municipal Land Use Act, 40:55D-1 et seq,
2 the whole thing, any other provision in the Land
3 Use Act which gives a planning board or a board of
4 adjustment the power to permit an applicant to
5 vary from the bulk standards of the ordinance
6 other than by applying for a bulk variance under
7 Subsection C or a bulk -- or a use variance under
8 Subsection D.
9 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
10 It calls for a legal conclusion.
11 MR. SEGRETO: No.
12 MR. DUNN: The witness may
13 answer the question if she can.
14 A I don't know.
15 Q Is it your understanding that, as a
16 planner, that a local ordinance can give a board
17 -- a planning board or a board of adjustment the
18 power to grant permission to vary from the terms
19 of an ordinance without complying with the bulk --
20 without requiring the affirmative and negative
21 criteria?
22 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object
23 again; legal conclusion.
24 MR. DUNN: If she can answer
25 from her knowledge.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
114
1 This is the very issue that's being
2 tried before Judge -- I forget his name --
3 MR. SEGRETO: Judge McLaughlin.
4 MR. DUNN: -- as to the meaning
5 of the impact of 40:55D-45.
6 She can answer the question, if she
7 can.
8 MR. SEGRETO: You make it sound as
9 though Judge McLaughlin has decided or
10 opined on that.
11 I didn't get a copy.
12 MR. DUNN: No.
13 I am just saying that's the issue
14 before Judge McLaughlin, and you can ask
15 this witness for a legal conclusion that
16 Judge McLaughlin can disagree with.
17 MR. KIENZ: Under Section 45 of
18 the Municipal Land Use Law.
19 MR. SEGRETO: Judge McLaughlin may
20 disagree with?
21 MR. DUNN: May disagree with.
22 MR. SEGRETO: He may agree. We
23 will abide the event. We have this record,
24 and we are here now.
25 Q Do you know if a board is authorized
Staines - Cross - Segreto
115
1 anywhere in any statute, the Land Use Act, in an
2 ordinance to be permitted to vary from the terms
3 of the zoning ordinance without applying for a
4 variance and meeting the affirmative and negative
5 criteria?
6 A I don't know.
7 Q Have you ever in any treatise on
8 zoning and planning in New Jersey ever seen anyone
9 opine that a board has such power to vary from the
10 terms of the ordinance except by a variance?
11 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
12 The Municipal Land Use Law speaks
13 for itself, and Section 45 of the Municipal
14 Land Use Law is very clear, as are sections
15 of the Weehawken ordinance.
16 I think this question is
17 inappropriate.
18 MR. DUNN: The witness may
19 answer.
20 Q Do you know of any?
21 A I have no recollection of any.
22 Q Pardon?
23 A I have no recollection of any
24 documents.
25 Q You are familiar with William Cox,
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1 the Standard Treatise on Zoning and Planning?
2 A Yes.
3 Q I hope you have one in your office.
4 Do you?
5 A I am sure we do.
6 Q Well, do you use it sometimes?
7 A Infrequently.
8 Q Infrequently.
9 Well, on those infrequent occasions when
10 you have looked at it, have you ever found
11 anything in which he opines or cites any case
12 which says that if the board wants to permit an
13 applicant to vary from the terms of an ordinance,
14 that they can do it without going through the
15 variance process and without requiring the
16 applicant to meet the affirmative and negative
17 criteria?
18 MR. KIENZ: Continuing objection.
19 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Chairman, I have
20 asked as a special consideration, that
21 clients of mine observe Mr. Goldberg while
22 I am asking questions, and he is giving
23 facial -- and it is reported to me that he
24 is giving facial signals.
25 MR. DUNN: Is that hearsay
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1 testimony?
2 MR. SEGRETO: Pardon?
3 MR. DUNN: Is that hearsay
4 testimony?
5 MR. SEGRETO: I am telling you what
6 is being reported to me. I cannot
7 simultaneously look here and see it there,
8 but if you need affidavits, I will give
9 them to you. I want and expect an
10 admonition to be given that it must not
11 happen.
12 I am not going to ask the chairman
13 to make a finding of fact that it has
14 happened. I think an admonition should be
15 given, a verbal admonition, generally to
16 everybody that no one should attempt to
17 give any signals to the witness who is on
18 the stand.
19 MR. DUNN: It's five minutes to
20 ten. Would you like to continue your
21 cross-examination now or -- it's five
22 minutes to ten, would you like to continue
23 your cross-examination now or would you
24 like to conclude?
25 MR. SEGRETO: It's up to you.
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1 I am not concluding. I am waiting
2 for the opportunity to leave for now.
3 MR. DUNN: Conclude for this
4 evening.
5 MR. SEGRETO: As we say adios, au
6 re voir. How about getting the admonition
7 on the record, and if you need an affidavit
8 from my associate, who is prepared to sign
9 an affidavit --
10 MR. DUNN: We haven't had
11 testimony.
12 MR. SEGRETO: -- that he has also
13 seen that just happen, we will furnish it.
14 I am not impressed.
15 MR. DUNN: We haven't had
16 testimony subject to cross-examination that
17 would indicate that that has occurred, and
18 until we have that, I think we will not
19 have any admonitions.
20 MR. T. SEGRETO: I can represent
21 --
22 MR. SEGRETO: Hold on, Tommy. He
23 is trying to bait you.
24 This record -- this record, and if
25 it becomes necessary at the appropriate
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1 time for us to submit affidavits in the
2 superior court, we will do it.
3 MR. DUNN: Do you wish to
4 continue?
5 MR. SEGRETO: The countenance, the
6 manner to sit next to the witness, and I
7 have physically observed him, and anybody
8 who has eyes can watch, have seen him point
9 to things on it.
10 We now have --
11 MR. DUNN: You made one
12 objection to that effect, and you have made
13 no others.
14 Do you wish --
15 MR. SEGRETO: You don't seem to
16 remember what I said last time.
17 MR. DUNN: Do you wish to
18 continue your cross-examination?
19 MR. SEGRETO: It's now five of. I
20 will say that my voice is going, but it
21 would be a pleasant respite for it to stop
22 talking.
23 You and I are both in our advanced
24 years, and much is forgiven of us, but I
25 don't think the measure of charity has to
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1 go as far as to forgive some of the
2 unforgiveable things that you have said to
3 me and about me throughout these
4 proceedings.
5 MR. DUNN: I guess --
6 MR. KIENZ: Apparently --
7 MR. SEGRETO: I will suffer through
8 it, but I don't want the record to not note
9 my objection to what has been happening.
10 MR. DUNN: I guess we are now in
11 the reverse baiting mode, and I will choose
12 to ignore it.
13 So, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Segreto seems
14 to be finished with his cross-examination
15 for tonight. Maybe you can take a motion
16 to adjourn.
17 MR. GOULD: I will take a motion
18 to adjourn.
19 MR. BARSA: I make a motion to
20 adjourn.
21 MR. ROSAS: Adjourn.
22 MR. DUNN: That motion is to
23 adjourn until next Thursday night until
24 seven o'clock.
25 MR. KIENZ: No further public
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1 notice is required. Is that my
2 understanding?
3 MR. DUNN: That is correct.
4 It is my understanding -- before we
5 adjourn -- before we adjourn --
6 MR. GOULD: Please be quiet until
7 we finish the proceeding.
8 MR. DUNN: -- it's our
9 understanding these witnesses will not be
10 here next week and that Mr. Kienz will have
11 another witness.
12 Is that a agreed to, Mr. Segreto?
13 MR. SEGRETO: I have no objection.
14 I accept that.
15 I want it clearly understood that I
16 think it's appropriate for me to extend my
17 consent to it as a matter of fundamental
18 professional courtesy. If from time to
19 time I have a conflict problem, I would
20 expect the same indulgence and the sympathy
21 from my colleague and the board.
22 MR. KIENZ: That's it. Let's
23 continue. Let's just continue.
24 MR. GOULD: Let's continue then.
25 MR. DUNN: I think, Mr. Segreto,
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1 you came to me before the meeting and asked
2 if we could possibly terminate tonight
3 around seven o'clock because you had been
4 ill last week and you had four nights out,
5 and I said to you at that time, after
6 consulting with counsel, that that was
7 acceptable and it was a courtesy that the
8 counsel and the board would extend to you,
9 and I asked you at that time whether you
10 had -- because counsel told me that these
11 witnesses were not available next week,
12 whether you had any objection to him
13 proceeding with a new witness.
14 MR. SEGRETO: And I said I do not.
15 MR. DUNN: Fine. Why don't we
16 leave the record there.
17 I think as far as scheduling is
18 concerned, that we have treated you with
19 the utmost courtesy and including delaying
20 the beginning of the proceedings in order
21 to permit your vacation and an unfortunate
22 situation where you were not able to appear
23 on time and tonight, so I don't think there
24 is --
25 MR. SEGRETO: Please, I was 20
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1 minutes late.
2 MR. DUNN: I don't think -- I
3 don't think that the board will treat you
4 other than with courtesy and respect, so
5 let's leave it tonight and try to adjourn
6 so that you can accommodate your health.
7 MR. SEGRETO: And I look forward,
8 if I run into a conflict problem, to the
9 same courtesy, and I am reassured by your
10 assurance to me that I will get
11 commensurate consideration if I have a
12 problem.
13 MR. DUNN: No, Mr. Segreto. We
14 have given notice -- we have given notice
15 to you that meetings occur on Thursday
16 night in Weehawken on this application, and
17 they are going to continue on Thursday
18 nights. You will need to resolve your
19 conflicts elsewhere.
20 MR. SEGRETO: Why did you say that
21 he should resolve the conflicts of his
22 witnesses next week, because they also know
23 that it's on Thursday? We can't have
24 one-way streets.
25 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, you will
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1 continue cross-examination tonight if you
2 wish until 11 o'clock, and I specifically
3 asked you before this proceeding began, and
4 you agreed with me unconditionally, not
5 that this will be the subject of further
6 considerations, you agreed with me
7 unconditionally that we would follow this
8 procedure, and now, apparently, we are not,
9 so would you like to continue the
10 cross-examination tonight so that we can
11 get as much done as we can, and if the
12 witnesses are not able to appear next time,
13 then Mr. Kienz can have the freedom to take
14 a witness out of order. We are not bound
15 to take witnesses in any particular order,
16 and we will do that.
17 We are meeting -- this board has
18 scheduled meetings through the month of
19 February, and, actually, at a board meeting
20 on Tuesday night they adopted a Sunshine
21 Law resolution that established meeting
22 dates through March, I think, in case they
23 are necessary.
24 We have given you notice of what our
25 schedule is.
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1 Do you want to stop now your
2 cross-examination?
3 MR. SEGRETO: I leave it up to you.
4 If you think that you want me to stay here
5 until 11 o'clock, I will stay here until 11
6 o'clock, and I will keep right on
7 cross-examining the witness.
8 All I have asked for is a level
9 playing field and if there is enough
10 flexibility to meet his exigent
11 circumstances, and I said I have no
12 objection to it.
13 I merely have said on the record
14 that if I have a similar problem, I would
15 expect commensurate flexibility from the
16 board, and you said the board would.
17 MR. DUNN: We will deal with it
18 when that occurs, Mr. Segreto.
19 MR. SEGRETO: That's fine.
20 MR. DUNN: Make a motion.
21 MR. GOULD: We already did.
22 MR. DUNN: There is a motion to
23 adjourn.
24 MR. GOULD: We are adjourned.
25 MR. DUNN: Without further
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1 notice.
2 MR. GOULD: Until next Thursday
3 at 7 o'clock.
4 * * *
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 I, PHILIP A. FISHMAN, a Notary Public and
4 Certified Shorthand Reporter for the State of New
5 Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a
6 true and accurate transcript of the hearing as
7 taken stenographically by and before me at the
8 time, place and on the date hereinbefore set
9 forth.
10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a
11 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of
12 any of the parties to this action and that I am
13 neither a relative nor employee of such attorney
14 or counsel, and that I am not financially
15 interested in the action.
16
17
18 Dated _______________ ________________________
19 PHILIP A. FISHMAN, C.S.R.
A Notary Public of the
20 State of New Jersey
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