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JANUARY 6, 2000
44 TO 86

ss Laura Staines and Michael Giardino

Professional Planner & Architect
Direct Testimony

ross-Examination by James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on
anuary 6, 2000.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 3 different web pages.

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1 dwellings of three bedrooms, in addition to which
2 we add a mixture of the --
3 MR. SEGRETO: Most respectfully, I
4 would ask the colleague, who is not under
5 oath, who is not testifying, to not intrude
6 into the process, and it is objectionable,
7 particularly when I see with my own tired
8 eyes, for the witness to be coached by her
9 colleague, who just put his finger on a
10 document and pointed things out.
11 Not right. Please don't do it.
12 MR. KIENZ: I am going to have to
13 just straighten out the record.
14 The colleague is Mr. Giardino, who
15 is not only under oath but who testified
16 extensively as one of the planners.
17 MR. SEGRETO: This business they
18 are working in tandem is aberant to my
19 entire experience. I said it before.
20 MR. DUNN: Fine.
21 MR. SEGRETO: He should sit
22 silently by while I examine this witness.
23 If he has got some input that you
24 want to develop on this record after I
25 cross-examine him, you can do it on your
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 redirect of him.
2 He should not be pointing things out
3 to the witness.
4 MR. DUNN: The Land Use Law
5 doesn't require us to apply the strict
6 rules of evidence.
7 The witness answered your question,
8 731 one-bedroom units, 420 two-bedroom
9 units, 211 three bedrooms.
10 May we move on.
11 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Dunn, you didn't
12 speak to my objection, which is that
13 someone who is not under oath testifying
14 now is coaching the witness and pointing
15 things out to her, and that is
16 impermissible. Even in the Star Chambers
17 they wouldn't approve of that.
18 MR. KIENZ: I have to clarify the
19 record.
20 MR. DUNN: I rule the witness is
21 under oath and it is permissible.
22 MR. SEGRETO: Now you are telling
23 -- now you are telling the two planners,
24 who are seated next to each other, that
25 they can interreact and that they can coach
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 her while I am asking her questions, and I
2 don't know where in the world, Mr. Dunn,
3 you got that notion of due process, but, in
4 any event, you have ruled that they can do
5 it, and every time I see it happen I am
6 going to put it on the record, and,
7 ultimately, we will find out if that
8 constitutes proper due process. It's
9 incredible.
10 MR. DUNN: Your threats are duly
11 noted.
12 MR. KIENZ: I want to state,
13 though, there is still a glitch here based
14 on the statements of Mr. Segreto, and that
15 is that Mr. Giardino testified extensively
16 as a professional planner to parts of the
17 report.
18 It was indicated clearly that they
19 had prepared the report together. He is
20 under oath. He was qualified as a
21 professional planner, and he spent over --
22 almost an hour testifying.
23 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Chairman, I have
24 a formal request to the chairman, not of
25 counsel to the board, but of the chairman,
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 that the gentleman who is seated
2 immediately next to the witness and who has
3 been assisting her and coaching her
4 demonstrably should now be asked to please
5 sit out here so that the witness is not
6 going to have him right next to her
7 pointing out things and coaching her.
8 I think the process is inimical to
9 what is supposed to happen here, and it is
10 denying me the opportunity to have an
11 efficacious cross-examination of this
12 witness now.
13 I will get to that witness later on,
14 and I would not expect anybody to coach him
15 while I am asking questions.
16 You ask yourselves whether or not
17 any enlightened notion of what due process
18 is all about can countenance that.
19 Will the chairman direct the
20 gentleman to please sit out here in the
21 audience?
22 MR. GOULD: I will defer to our
23 counsel's advice.
24 MR. SEGRETO: All I can do is make
25 my record.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: Right.
2 In the interest of an expeditious
3 proceeding, I think the witness can
4 continue to sit there.
5 Q Can you tell us what the total
6 number of bedrooms is?
7 A Yes. I was attempting to, Mr.
8 Segreto. Let me try it again.
9 There are 731 one-bedroom units. There are
10 420 two-bedroom units, 211 two- or three-bedroom
11 units, which are comprised of the town homes.
12 In addition, that should total 1362
13 dwellings, the particular bedroom count, we have
14 to go through the math.
15 In addition, there are 54 one-bedroom
16 assisted-living dwellings. There are 150
17 one-bedroom independent-living units, and 66
18 two-bedroom independent-living units.
19 Q And what are the total number of
20 bedrooms?
21 A I did not add them up.
22 I was just confirming the unit counts.
23 Q Would you do it?
24 A Sure.
25 A I see my bedroom count of the
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 residential components 1632 dwelling units is
2 approximately 2300 -- 2329 bedrooms.
3 Q And you suggested that there will be
4 how many residents?
5 A I believe I testified to
6 approximately 3500.
7 Q Do you think it's going to come to
8 one person per bedroom? Is that right?
9 A Actually, the calculations are done
10 a little differently.
11 That information was provided by the
12 gentleman generating the fiscal impact.
13 Q In other words, you didn't give
14 those numbers to him. He gave those numbers to
15 you?
16 A The population was given to me.
17 Correct. We provided the bedroom count.
18 Q Now, do you know what assumption the
19 traffic engineer made in his traffic generation
20 analysis as to how many occupants in the
21 residential units there will be?
22 A No, I don't.
23 Q Oh, by the way, have you looked at
24 both of the traffic engineer's reports?
25 A I read one, and, I believe, there
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 was an amendment. I don't know of any others.
2 Q Well, there are two of them, one in
3 July and one in August. Isn't that so?
4 A I don't know the dates, Mr. Segreto.
5 Q Well, did you in expressing your
6 planning conclusions that everything is okay with
7 this development from a planning point of view,
8 taking into account the traffic impact --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- did you actually read the traffic
11 engineer's reports?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q Do you know what an asterisk
14 resulting of local services is?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do you know what an asterisk
17 as-built resulting level of service is?
18 A I am sorry. Ask me that again.
19 Q An asterisk resulting level of
20 services?
21 A No, I am not familiar with that term.
22 Q Now I want you to assume that is one
23 in which the numbers are so high that the computer
24 can't calculate them, the amount of delay.
25 Do you know in the two reports of the
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 traffic engineer, one dealing with the banana
2 building and the other dealing with the other
3 parts of the development, how many resulting
4 as-built levels of service he projects of F and
5 asterisk?
6 MR. KIENZ: Objection; beyond the
7 scope of the direct.
8 We have a traffic expert coming in
9 to testify.
10 MR. SEGRETO: This witness
11 testified that, from a planning point of
12 view, there is no resulting detriment from
13 the granting of this application.
14 She has testified that traffic
15 impact is a relevant factor.
16 I am trying to explore whether or
17 not she is familiar with the resulting
18 traffic impact as reflected in the traffic
19 engineer's two reports for the purpose of
20 determining whether or not she knows what
21 the traffic impact is, and also if she took
22 that into account in offering a net opinion
23 that there would be no negative impact in
24 the granting of this application.
25 MR. KIENZ: I have a continuing
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 objection for the same reason.
2 MR. SEGRETO: Could we have a
3 ruling?
4 MR. DUNN: Yes. The board will
5 not take into account this witness's
6 opinion on traffic.
7 MR. SEGRETO: I am not asking the
8 witness's opinion on traffic.
9 I am asking the witness's opinion --
10 MR. DUNN: I will overrule the
11 objection.
12 Please, don't, Mr. Segreto, hic-cup.
13 I will overrule the objection.
14 Q Do you happen to have the traffic
15 reports here?
16 A I am sure they are in one of the
17 boxes, Mr. Segreto, but they are in disarray, so I
18 am not sure I can put my hands on it.
19 Q Well, have you ever read the
20 reports?
21 A Yes, Mr. Segreto, I have.
22 Q Why don't you get the copies out
23 that you read.
24 A Mr. Segreto, if you recall, you went
25 through our files. I do not know what I have
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 there any longer. They are in quite a bit of
2 disarray. It will take me some time to find it.
3 Q Well, the things that I ask that be
4 brought here were the traffic reports.
5 MR. DUNN: Why don't you show
6 her your copy of the traffic reports so we
7 don't waste the board's time.
8 MR. SEGRETO: The first thing I
9 want to do is to find out if she even read
10 them.
11 MR. DUNN: She said she read
12 them.
13 MR. SEGRETO: I am now not
14 accepting it at face value, and I am doing
15 what a cross-examiner is doing, to ask her
16 to show me the documents that she said she
17 read.
18 MR. DUNN: She doesn't have them
19 here.
20 We are trying to expedite this.
21 MR. SEGRETO: Counsel, did you
22 bring the boxes that I asked you to bring?
23 MR. DUNN: The Land Use Law
24 permits cross-examination subject to
25 reasonable limitations as to time and
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 relevancy -- time and the number of
2 witnesses -- excuse me -- and if you have
3 -- if you have a copy of the report in your
4 hand and you wish to ask the question --
5 the witness specific questions about it, it
6 would behoove you to give her the report,
7 rather than to waste the board's time while
8 she looks through the files for her report.
9 MR. SEGRETO: You have a penchant
10 to be discourteous and pejorative to me,
11 and you are telling me I am wasting my
12 time.
13 You are talking about time, and you
14 told me at the beginning that I have -- I
15 forgot how many -- 277 minutes, and it's
16 now 25 minutes after eight, so I am within
17 my time, and I am going to do the
18 cross-examination in accordance with my
19 understanding of what a cross-examination
20 is.
21 MR. DUNN: All right.
22 MR. SEGRETO: I want to find out --
23 I asked my colleague whether or not he
24 brought the boxes of documents that I told
25 him I want.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 I wanted the traffic reports, so
2 they should be here.
3 Are they here?
4 THE WITNESS: May I look in the
5 box?
6 MR. SEGRETO: Please, yes, of
7 course.
8 MR. DUNN: We will note that
9 it's 8:29, and Mr. Segreto is holding in
10 his hand what appears to be a traffic
11 report.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Well, not even your
13 clock on the wall agrees with you.
14 MR. DUNN: It's my watch.
15 MR. SEGRETO: Yes, I understand.
16 MR. DUNN: It's the relevant
17 time.
18 MR. SEGRETO: I understand.
19 I have a lovely watch that agrees
20 with the one that agrees on the wall.
21 MR. DUNN: Tell me what time it
22 is on the wall. I can't see it. 8:28?
23 MR. ROSAS: 8:28.
24 MR. SEGRETO: This is degenerating
25 between two lawyers, which is not at all
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 what the proceeding is supposed to be
2 about, degenerating posturing between two
3 lawyers.
4 Q I want to give you a hint. They are
5 big thick documents.
6 A I am trying to locate it, Mr.
7 Segreto. Okay?
8 I have found the Traffic Impact Study dated
9 August 19, 1999.
10 Q That's the thick gray covered one.
11 Right?
12 A Yes. That's correct.
13 I don't see any other copies -- I do not
14 locate any other copies in the box.
15 Q Are you aware of the fact that there
16 is a July 15, 1999 traffic impact study that deals
17 with final stage two residential planned
18 development, banana building?
19 A I believe I testified that there are
20 several traffic reports. I don't know specific
21 dates.
22 Q Do I understand that you don't have
23 the July 15, 1999 report?
24 A It's not in my possession at this
25 moment, no.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Do you have a present recollection
2 of having reviewed it at any time?
3 A I have reviewed more than one
4 traffic study. I cannot specifically state which
5 one.
6 Q Do you recall whether you reviewed
7 this one, the July 15, 1999 traffic report,
8 dealing with the traffic impact of the banana
9 building?
10 A I do not recall.
11 Q I take it that you do not nor you
12 were not aware of the fact that the conditional
13 LOS with the AM peak hour shows a resulting level
14 of service with eight F and asterisk LOS's.
15 You are not aware of that, are you?
16 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I am
17 going to object to that.
18 We have a traffic expert coming in.
19 We have been through this before. She
20 testified to the plan. Now we are getting
21 into very, very specific reports. It's not
22 something she testified to.
23 MR. DUNN: Overruled.
24 Q I want you to assume --
25 MR. DUNN: Did you -- did she
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 answer the last question that I overruled
2 the objection on or are you rephrasing it?
3 MR. GOULD: She did not answer
4 the question.
5 MR. DUNN: Are you rephrasing
6 it?
7 Q Can you answer the question?
8 A You were referring to the number of
9 intersections that were --
10 A Level of service F asterisk.
11 Q Are you aware of the fact that in
12 the July 15, 1999 Traffic Impact Study done by
13 Romulus, done by Edwards & Kelsey Engineers, for
14 the banana building, that that report concludes
15 that as the result of the use of the proposed use
16 of the banana building, there would be in the AM
17 peak hour nine resulting as-built LOS's of
18 asterisk and F?
19 MR. KIENZ: Continued objection.
20 Q Were you aware of that?
21 A My knowledge of the traffic is of a
22 general nature.
23 The specific levels of service of each
24 intersection are really a subject for the traffic
25 engineer.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q I am asking you now what is a proper
2 subject of my question to you.
3 Are you aware of the fact that there are
4 such nine resulting levels of service indicated in
5 the report?
6 You either know that or you do not know
7 that.
8 A I don't recall that.
9 Q Now I want you to assume that just
10 the banana building, if it were built in
11 accordance with this plan, in the AM peak hour
12 would generate traffic which would result in an
13 as-built LOS which in nine instances, nine
14 movements, will be F or asterisk.
15 If that's so, from a planning point of
16 view, is that acceptable?
17 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
18 This is a mischaracterization of
19 what's going on here.
20 He is excerpting out a small part of
21 the report.
22 MR. SEGRETO: You can take care of
23 that on the redirect.
24 MR. DUNN: Please don't
25 interrupt the objection. I would like to
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 hear it. I think I am entitled to hear it
2 without objection.
3 Is that okay?
4 Mr. Kienz.
5 MR. KIENZ: Thank you.
6 This is a mischaracterization, and
7 he is picking out a small portion of the
8 report. This is not of the testimony. We
9 have a traffic expert coming in. This is
10 inappropriate, and it is beyond the scope
11 of what she testified to.
12 MR. DUNN: I am going to sustain
13 the objection.
14 I think the report that he refers to
15 has to do with an application that's not
16 presently before us.
17 MR. SEGRETO: The banana building
18 is not before you.
19 MR. DUNN: You said it's a Phase
20 II final application for site plan approval
21 of the banana building. That's not what
22 the subject of this hearing is.
23 MR. SEGRETO: If you don't
24 understand that the banana building
25 application is before you --
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: That isn't what I
2 said, Mr. Segreto.
3 What I said was that the report that
4 you have -- you are examining the witness
5 about has to do with the Phase II final --
6 Phase II final site plan of the banana
7 building, which is not before us.
8 The report that you have as to the
9 overall development is something that is
10 before us, and you haven't asked a question
11 about that in the time that you have been
12 examining about -- you have been examining,
13 so I am going to rule that it's irrelevant.
14 MR. SEGRETO: The preliminary
15 application is before you.
16 MR. DUNN: Right. And the
17 traffic study --
18 MR. SEGRETO: And your -- I am
19 sorry.
20 MR. DUNN: And the traffic study
21 with respect to the preliminary application
22 is a relevant document to this
23 cross-examination.
24 MR. SEGRETO: Well, is there one?
25 MR. DUNN: You have it. Not the
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Phase II -- not the Phase II final site
2 plan banana building prepared in July of
3 1999
4 The one in August of 1999 has to do
5 with the preliminary -- preliminary PUD
6 approval, as I understand it.
7 MR. SEGRETO: Is that what you
8 understand?
9 Q We are not going -- you don't have
10 to answer the question because the attorney has
11 opined that it's an objectionable question.
12 With regard to the August 19, 1999 report
13 -- do you have that there?
14 A Yes.
15 Q By the way, is it your understanding
16 or do you have an understanding of the difference
17 between a preliminary approval and a final
18 approval?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And isn't it true that one of the
21 things on the final approval is that the final
22 plan must comply with the approved preliminary
23 plan?
24 A I believe so, yes.
25 Q And if we note what the resulting
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 level of service would be if the project were
2 built, doesn't that tell us that the resulting
3 level of service at the final is the same as at
4 the preliminary?
5 A I am sorry. I don't understand your
6 question.
7 Q Could an applicant get preliminary
8 approval for the banana building and then when
9 they apply for a final approval, change the
10 dynamics -- the traffic dynamics, would they
11 change them?
12 A Mr. Segreto, my understanding of the
13 traffic report is that it takes into consideration
14 the phasing of construction.
15 Perhaps your question is related to the
16 phasing of the banana building approval in
17 relation to the balance of the planned
18 development.
19 I am not sure I understand.
20 Q Well, you haven't even seen the
21 report, so you are only speculating, right, the
22 July report?
23 A I don't recall the July report.
24 Q You have got the August 1st, haven't
25 you?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A Yes.
2 Q Turn to Page 36.
3 Do you have Page 36?
4 A I believe I do.
5 Table 13. Is that correct? Yes.
6 Q Yes, it's Table 13. Right?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And you see an AM peak hour. Right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you see a PM peak hour?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Now, in the AM peak hour isn't it
13 true that there are resulting LOS's, seven, which
14 are either F or asterisk?
15 It's on Page 36.
16 Do you see where it says Table 13 on the
17 top?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Do you see that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q It says, "Future build condition
22 LOS," and under that AM peak hour --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- and then right under that you see
25 the column entitled "LOS"?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And isn't it true that in that
3 column on Page 36 there are one, two, three, four,
4 five, six, seven resulting levels of service that
5 are either asterisk or F?
6 Stay on Page 36. We are going to come to
7 Page 37. Right now we are counting 36.
8 Do you have 36?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Aren't there seven of them?
11 A There are seven locations noted.
12 Correct.
13 Q Seven of them, AM peak hour, the
14 resulting level of service, seven of them would be
15 F or asterisk?
16 A Correct.
17 Q Now, for PM on the same page, isn't
18 it true that there are one, two, three, four,
19 five, six, seven, eight, nine -- nine resulting F
20 or asterisk levels of service in the PM?
21 A There are nine.
22 Q Now let's go to Page 37.
23 Now, under AM peak hour --
24 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I am
25 going to object as to the relevancy of this
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 whole line of questioning.
2 MR. SEGRETO: Let me finish my
3 question.
4 MR. KIENZ: I am objecting to the
5 whole line of questions, and I am objecting
6 because we have a traffic expert coming who
7 will be providing very, very specific
8 explanatory testimony on these charts.
9 She didn't testify to them. This is
10 unfair. It is inappropriate. It's
11 contrary to the rules.
12 MR. DUNN: If Mr. Segreto wishes
13 to use his time in this manner, I will
14 overrule your objection.
15 MR. SEGRETO: Counsel, don't you
16 have any intimation of how reprehensible
17 your conduct is? You just said Mr. Segreto
18 can waste his time.
19 MR. DUNN: No, I did not, Mr.
20 Segreto. Perhaps you didn't hear me.
21 I said if Mr. Segreto wishes to use
22 his time in this manner, I will overrule
23 the objection.
24 Q Now, isn't it true that on Page 37
25 there are, for the AM resulting LOS, 11 F's or
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 asterisk?
2 MR. KIENZ: I ask that my
3 objection be noted.
4 A I count on Table 13 continued 11
5 locations.
6 Q That's for AM?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Now let's go to the PM.
9 Isn't it true that in the PM peak hour the
10 resulting level of services that the project -- if
11 the project were built, there are one, two, three,
12 four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten asterisk
13 or F's?
14 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
15 Q Isn't that so?
16 A I count ten locations.
17 Q And if we add the resulting levels
18 of service on Page 36 and Page 37, we come up with
19 37 movements, which, as a result of the
20 construction of this property, would be failing
21 levels of service. Isn't that true?
22 A According to the chart there are the
23 number you identified.
24 Q 37?
25 A 37? 37 movements that are
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 catagorized as F or asterisk.
2 Q Is that desirable from a planning
3 point of view?
4 A Those conditions are not desirable
5 under any conditions.
6 Q Have you ever -- how many years have
7 you been a planner -- forgive me -- let's say, in
8 your very noteworthy and distinguished career as a
9 planner, have you ever worked on a project which
10 results in 37 resulting failing levels of service?
11 A Mr. Segreto, I find that question
12 extremely difficult to answer in light of the fact
13 that you have not asked any questions about
14 existing or no-build levels of service, which,
15 unfortunately, are not my purview to answer. I
16 only wish I could, and I believe your answer --
17 question is completely out of context.
18 Q Well, in any event, if this project
19 were approved and built, this document by the
20 applicant's engineer -- traffic engineer tells us
21 there would be 37 failed intersections. Right?
22 A Yes, and furthermore, Mr. Segreto,
23 if you read further in the document -- I am sorry
24 -- I can't pick out the page -- without the
25 development of this community, I believe you will
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 find there are more failed developments.
2 Q More?
3 A If you read the document.
4 Q Let me see if I understand this.
5 Your understanding is that the development
6 is of how many million square feet?
7 A 1.384, to the best of my
8 recollection.
9 Q About how much?
10 A 1,384,000 square feet.
11 Q Is that just the commercial?
12 A Pardon me?
13 Q I thought that was just the
14 commercial.
15 It's also office development?
16 A Oh, yes.
17 Q In any event, is it your
18 understanding that this enormous development,
19 which is going to include residential units with
20 how many -- 3,000 residential units?
21 A No, 1300 -- I am sorry -- 1632
22 residential units.
23 Q And about 1.2 million square feet of
24 office -- new office space. Right?
25 A 1.3 million.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q A brand-new terminal?
2 A Ferry terminal. Correct.
3 Q The banana building?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And all the other amenities?
6 A Yes.
7 Q That when that is all built and they
8 will start generating their traffic, it's going to
9 make the traffic conditions better? Is that your
10 understanding?
11 A Mr. Segreto, I rely on my traffic
12 consultant to advise me that there are off-site
13 and on-site improvements that will, in fact,
14 improve the traffic conditions.
15 Q You are talking about mitigation?
16 A Various mitigation measures, yes.
17 Q I am not going to ask you questions
18 about mitigation because they are pure engineering
19 issues.
20 I will be asking the traffic engineer about
21 that.
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q But you would agree that 37
24 resulting levels of service under no conditions is
25 acceptable from a planning point of view?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A Actually, I temper that if it's an
2 improvement over the existing are -- or over the
3 no-built condition, I could not say that.
4 Q I will ask you again, did you read
5 -- do you have a recollection of having read
6 somewhere in this report that traffic conditions
7 are going to be better when all these things are
8 constructed?
9 A Mr. Segreto, there is a rather
10 significant effort that was put into this
11 preparation of this document, and, as I pointed
12 out, I rely on the professional traffic engineer's
13 judgment that in the no-build condition the
14 traffic conditions will, in fact, worsen.
15 In the build conditions, there will be
16 traffic improvement over the non-build conditions.
17 That engineer will specifically speak to
18 those issues far more eloquently than I.
19 Q By the way, this light rail system,
20 do you know who is going to be putting it
21 together?
22 A New Jersey Department of
23 Transportation has been significantly involved, I
24 presume.
25 Q Isn't it going to be operated by New
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Jersey Transit?
2 A I don't really know who will be --
3 who the ultimate operator will be.
4 I presume it will be.
5 Q This particular light rail system
6 has an impact upon this develop, this site,
7 doesn't it?
8 A I believe it will have some.
9 Correct.
10 Q What did you do in order to inform
11 yourself as a planner what the impact of that
12 particular regional amenity would be in terms of
13 generation of people who would come on the site to
14 use the facilities?
15 A We have representatives from New
16 Jersey Transit.
17 Q And, as a result of that, did you
18 find out what their time schedule is for service
19 from Hoboken to the Port Imperial ferry?
20 A Yes and no.
21 We asked the question, and the answer to us
22 was there was an unknown timetable. We are not in
23 a position to confirm the timetable to us.
24 Q When did you talk to them?
25 A I beg your pardon?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q When did you talk to New Jersey
2 Transit?
3 A Did you ask me when? Did you say --
4 Q Yes, when.
5 A I believe it was May or June of '99.
6 Q When?
7 A Several times, but the most recent
8 was May or June of 1999.
9 Q Do you know if they have put out any
10 written documents concerning the light rail
11 system?
12 A If they have I am not aware of any.
13 Q You haven't even seen their light
14 rail system master plan?
15 A No.
16 Q Have you even seen their
17 construction drawings?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you know when they plan to award
20 contracts?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you know when they plan to have
23 that first leg from Hoboken to Port Imperial in
24 place?
25 A No.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Do you know anything about a service
2 tunnel to 50th Street and Tunnelly Avenue?
3 A That doesn't sound familiar. I
4 don't recollect that.
5 Q I don't want to be pejorative, but
6 would it be correct to say you know very little
7 about the specific New Jersey Transit plans for
8 the light rail system?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And, therefore, you cannot give any
11 planning opinions concerning how the construction
12 of that facility and the subsequent operation
13 would interact and impact upon the future
14 development of this property?
15 A I certainly can give a planning
16 opinion, not specifically about its timetable or
17 the ridership, but certainly the influence that it
18 will have on the overall community and
19 relationship.
20 Q Is it going to bring less people or
21 more people on the site?
22 A It has the opportunity to bring more
23 people on the site and take more people off the
24 site, as well as through the site. That's the
25 purpose of the light rail.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Well, is it your impression that a
2 substantial number of people who will either work
3 on this site or live here will take the light rail
4 either westward to go somewhere else or southward
5 to go somewhere else?
6 A You use the term "a substantial
7 number."
8 I can't pinpoint the number, but I
9 anticipate a large number of employees and
10 residents will use the light rail. That is our
11 expectation.
12 Q To go somewhere else to work.
13 Right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So that takes a substantial number
16 of people who will be residents who will not be
17 using the ferry to go to New York. Right?
18 A I didn't say that.
19 Q I didn't say you said that.
20 I am asking you that.
21 A You use the term "substantial."
22 Q You used the term. You said a
23 "substantial number of them will be going on the
24 light rail to go to work and to either go south or
25 to go west."
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: Is that a question?
2 MR. SEGRETO: Of course it's a
3 question. Can't you tell by the infection
4 in my voice?
5 MR. DUNN: No.
6 A Actually, the previous question
7 requested that I not use the word "substantial."
8 I have no knowledge of the ridership base.
9 I pointed out that it is available to the
10 residents and the employees.
11 Q Why do you find the use of the word
12 "substantial" inappropriate when that's the very
13 criteria in the ordinance that deals with
14 accessory uses of terminals?
15 A I don't believe we made any comment
16 about the station for the light rail.
17 Q Is the word "substantial" used in
18 the ordinance dealing with the permitted
19 accessorial uses of a terminal?
20 A My recollection the word was
21 "primarily."
22 Q You think there is a difference
23 between "substantial" and "primarily" or not?
24 A They are probably fairly similar,
25 but I don't believe I used that terminology in
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 relation to the light rail station.
2 Q By the way, this terminal --
3 A Which one, Mr. Segreto?
4 Q The proposed, expanded relocated
5 terminal the applicant wants to build around this
6 site.
7 A The ferry terminal?
8 Q The ferry terminal, yes.
9 You are talking about people on the site
10 using it to go to New York.
11 Now, are there going to be any people in
12 New York who are going to use the terminal to come
13 to Weehawken?
14 A I would certainly hope so.
15 Q Do you have any idea the number that
16 are projected to come?
17 A No. It is not up to me to generate
18 that number.
19 Q So that could be 10,000 people a day
20 or it could be 1,000. You don't know?
21 A No, I don't know.
22 MR. DUNN: Mr. Segreto, whenever
23 you have a convenient point, we would like
24 to give the reporter a break.
25 MR. SEGRETO: This would be a fine
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 time.
2 MR. DUNN: Okay.
3 MR. GOULD: Okay. We will take a
4 ten-minute recess.
5 (Whereupon, a short recess is
6 taken.)
7 THE CLERK: Anthony Rosas.
8 MR. ROSAS: Here.
9 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
10 MR. BARSA: Here.
11 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
12 MR. TURNER: Here.
13 THE CLERK: Mr. Gould.
14 MR. GOULD: Here.
15 THE CLERK: Ms. Kravitz.
16 MS. KRAVITZ: Here.
17 THE CLERK: Albert Cabrera is
18 making a phone call.
19 MR. GOULD: Okay. Mr. Segreto,
20 would you care to continue with your
21 cross-examination?
22 MR. SEGRETO: Yes.
23 Q What's the population -- the present
24 population of Weehawken?
25 A I don't recall, Mr. Segreto.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 I have read it in both the master plan -- I
2 am sorry -- one of the census reports and the
3 fiscal impact, but I don't recall.
4 MR. DUNN: Use the microphone,
5 please.
6 THE WITNESS: I just don't recall
7 at this moment.
8 Q Well, you have in your direct said
9 rather matter-of-factly that this particular
10 project is going to be beneficial and won't have a
11 deleterious effect on the town, and you don't even
12 know what the population of this town is that you
13 are talking about?
14 A I did, Mr. Segreto.
15 I just don't recall at this moment.
16 Q You forgot it?
17 A Yes, I forgot it.
18 Q Now assume for our present purposes
19 that the population is around 12,500 as I count
20 it.
21 You said before the break that if this
22 project is approved and built, there will be about
23 8,000 people working there everyday. Right?
24 A Additional. Correct.
25 Q There will be about 3500 people
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 living there. Right?
2 A Correct.
3 Q That's 11,500, which is almost equal
4 the population of the town. Right?
5 A If your supposition is correct,
6 that's correct, yes.
7 Q And --
8 MR. GOULD: I am sorry. Hold on,
9 please.
10 Okay.
11 Q Isn't it practically a doubling of
12 the people population, and having on this site
13 almost the equivalent number of people as the
14 entire existing population of the town, you don't
15 think that's going to have any effect on the
16 traffic and the demographic character of the town?
17 A I didn't suggest that it would not
18 have an effect. I am certain it will.
19 Q And you think it's a good effect.
20 Right?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q You think that the people who live
23 here are going to find that the quality of life in
24 their town is enhanced by having the people
25 presence double if this project is approved?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A It is our goal to enhance that
2 quality of life. Correct.
3 Q Pardon?
4 A Yes.
5 Q It will affect the quality of life,
6 won't it?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you think it's going to make
9 their quality of life better?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Tell me how it's going to make their
12 quality of life better to have, on this relatively
13 small portion of the town, the equivalent of the
14 entire present population of the town?
15 A There are a variety of factors
16 involved.
17 There is the fiscal impact to the
18 community. The rateables going to be generated
19 through the construction of the commercial
20 properties will have a significant financial
21 benefit to the community as stated in the Fiscal
22 Impact Report.
23 Q What has that got to do with the
24 quality of life?
25 A Consider the quality of life, Mr.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Segreto. It allows the tax base for the community
2 to remain stable or possibly even lower or --
3 Q You really think --
4 A May I finish.
5 MR. DUNN: She said she had a
6 multipart answer to your question. I would
7 like the witness to answer the question.
8 MR. SEGRETO: Thank you.
9 A This allows the residents and the
10 employees of the community to benefit from any
11 additional services or the maintenance of a high
12 level of services that exist today without
13 additional undue cost.
14 In addition, the construction of the
15 waterfront walkway, the development of the overall
16 community, mixed-use community, the introduction
17 of new and beneficial uses, preservation of open
18 space, the introduction of the new public park,
19 the coordination and integration of transportation
20 systems developed in the community will all
21 provide for significant improvement in the quality
22 of life for the existing residents of the town.
23 MR. GOULD: I am sorry, Mr.
24 Segreto.
25 Before you continue, will the record
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 reflect that Albert Cabrera has just
2 returned.
3 Q And you think that tax rateables in
4 the generation of tax income is a proper
5 consideration in the review of a development
6 application?
7 A Yes, I think it is a consideration.
8 Q Have you read any of the cases which
9 speak to that subject?
10 A Which cases do you refer to?
11 Q The cases of the Law Division, the
12 Appellate Division and the Supreme Court, the land
13 use cases, which all say that projected tax
14 revenues to a municipality are not the basis for
15 approving or disapproving land use applications,
16 are you familiar with any of those cases?
17 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
18 He is calling for a legal opinion.
19 A Mr. Segreto --
20 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
21 He is calling for a legal opinion.
22 MR. DUNN: Sustained.
23 MR. SEGRETO: No, I am asking her
24 if she is familiar with it. That's not a
25 legal conclusion.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 That's a fact question, and you
2 interrupted her answer. She was about to
3 answer.
4 A I don't recall any of those cases,
5 no.
6 Q I am sorry?
7 A I don't recall any of those cases.
8 Q All right. Now, having so many more
9 people on this limited site, you think that the
10 people, the 11,000 -- no, the 12,500 people in the
11 town are going to have a measurable enhancement in
12 the quality of their life. Right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q The introduction of this development
15 is going to cause there to be less traffic on the
16 streets or more traffic on the streets?
17 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
18 She is not here to testify as to
19 traffic. We will be dealing with traffic
20 when --
21 MR. DUNN: If Mr. Segreto wishes
22 to use his time in this regard, she may
23 answer the question.
24 A I am sorry to say I have forgotten
25 the question.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Do you think having the more traffic
2 superimposed upon the existing traffic conditions
3 is from a planning point of view going to result
4 in an enhancement of the quality of life of the
5 people of the town?
6 A Mr. Segreto, the conditions that are
7 being proposed with the planned development, the
8 incorporation of the off-site and on-site traffic
9 improvements will improve the quality of life and
10 will improve the traffic conditions that otherwise
11 would exist without this development.
12 Q Do you know how many acres the
13 entire territorial limits of the municipality
14 consist of?
15 A I don't recall, but I can do with
16 the census information and get that information.
17 I don't recall at this moment.
18 Q Do you know what the acreage of this
19 particular site is?
20 A You are referring to our PD
21 application?
22 Q Your site.
23 A Developable acres are approximately
24 92. Correct.
25 Q You are going to put 11,500 people
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 on 92 acres.
2 Do you know what that comes to density per
3 acre?
4 A On a person-per-acre basis?
5 Q No, on an acre basis.
6 A A dwelling unit?
7 Q No, people.
8 MR. DUNN: Are we talking about
9 mathematics here, 11,000 divided by the
10 number of acres, is that what we are
11 talking about?
12 Q Do you know?
13 A Simple math, but --
14 Q All right. And you don't know how
15 many acres the other 12,500 people are spread upon
16 in the entire town, do you?
17 A I read it. I don't recall at this
18 moment.
19 Q You wouldn't think that the existing
20 population of 12,500 is all huddled together on
21 about 90 acres, or so, would you?
22 A Mr. Segreto, I think you are mixing
23 apples and oranges.
24 Q Don't tell me about apples and
25 oranges.
Staines - Cross - Segreto

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