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JANUARY 6, 2000

ss Laura Staines and Michael Giardino

Professional Planner & Architect
Direct Testimony

ross-Examination by James Segreto

Below is the transcript from the Weehawken Planning Board Hearing on
anuary 6, 2000.  This html document follows the format of the official transcript. The transcript format has 25 lines per page. Each page is numbered. Because the transcript is so long, the file has been broken down into 3 different web pages.

Jump to 01/06/00 pages 44 to 86
Jump to 01/06/00 pages 87  to 127 (end of transcript)

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7:00 PM
7 MARK GOULD, Chairman
10 PILAR BARDROFF, Board Clerk
11 JILL HARTMANN, Town Planner
15 Appearing on behalf of the Board.
17 Appearing on behalf of the Applicant.
19 Attorney for the Objectors.
(973) 285-5331 - FAX (973) 285-5293
1 I N D E X
5 by Mr. Segreto 5
8 I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S
10 O-23 Document 42
1 MR. GOULD: Hello everybody.
2 This is a regular public meeting of
3 the Weehawken Planning Board.
4 It has been called in accordance
5 with the Open Public Meetings Act of the
6 State of New Jersey in accordance the
7 board's motion adopted on December 16,
8 1999
9 We also have a letter from Donna
10 Jandik indicating that she faxed an agenda
11 of the meeting to the Bergen Record, New
12 Jersey Journal and the Weehawken Reporter,
13 posted it in the municipal building, and
14 filed it with the township clerk.
15 Will the clerk please call the roll.
16 THE CLERK: Anthony Rosas.
17 MR. ROSAS: Here.
18 THE CLERK: Mr. Barsa.
19 MR. BARSA: Here.
20 THE CLERK: Mr. Turner.
21 MR. TURNER: Here.
22 THE CLERK: Mr. Gould.
23 MR. GOULD: Here.
24 THE CLERK: Ms. Kravitz.
25 MS. KRAVITZ: Here.
1 THE CLERK: Mr. Cabrera.
2 MR. CABRERA: Here.
3 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
4 This is the continued public hearing
5 of a preliminary planned development
6 application for Block 36.05, Lot 1.01;
7 Block 36.05, Lot 2.01; Block 45, Lots 6, 7,
8 8 and 9; Block 45.01, Lots 1.01, 2.01,
9 3.01, and 4.01; Block 45.02, Lot 1.01;
10 Block 64, Lots 8 and 9; Block 64.01, Lots
11 1.01, 2.01, and 3.01; Block 64.02, Lot
12 1.01; and Block 64.03, Lot 1.01.
13 The applicant is Port Imperial
14 South, LLC.
15 Will counsel please enter their
16 appearances.
17 MR. KIENZ: For the record, I am
18 Glenn Kienz from Weiner, Lesniak.
19 I am here on behalf of the
20 applicant, Port Imperial, LLC.
21 Happy New Year.
22 MR. GOULD: Happy New Year.
23 MR. SEGRETO: James V. Segreto
24 representing the objectors.
25 MR. GOULD: Okay. Thank you.
1 All right. I guess before we move
2 on with Mr. Segreto's cross-examination,
3 are there any general comments from board
4 members?
5 Mr. Dunn.
6 Okay. So, Mr. Kienz, I believe that
7 Mr. Segreto will now continue his
8 cross-examination of the witnesses.
9 MR. KIENZ: Correct, Mr.
10 Chairman.
11 MR. GOULD: Mr. Segreto, by our
12 count you have 277 minutes of
13 cross-examination time remaining for the
14 witnesses.
15 The board may permit additional
16 cross-examination upon finding a good
17 cause.
18 Does that tally with yours?
19 MR. SEGRETO: Yes.
20 L A U R A S T A I N E S, previously sworn.
22 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Chairman and the
23 board, I do want the members of the board
24 to know, I was out all week with the flu.
25 I came back this week. This is the fourth
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 night I have been out. I am going to
2 endure as long as I can.
3 I thought that we suddenly called in
4 today and said I was indisposed, there
5 might be some incredulity. I think I said,
6 "I think I should be there," and I am here.
7 If we can adjourn sometime less than
8 11 o'clock, it would be much appreciated,
9 and I will continue on as long as I can.
10 My voice is failing, but I will do the best
11 I can.
12 MR. DUNN: I think we can, Mr.
13 Kienz, Mr. Segreto, I think we can
14 accommodate your request, your concern
15 about asking you to proceed when you are
16 not feeling well.
17 Mr. Kienz has advised me that he has
18 his fiscal impact witness, Mr. Listokin,
19 available for testimony next week, and then
20 Ms. Staines and Michael are not available
21 next week, so without objection, we will
22 allow Mr. Kienz to proceed with Mr.
23 Listokin next week.
24 MR. SEGRETO: Is that his traffic
25 engineer?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. DUNN: No, that's the fiscal
2 impact.
3 MR. SEGRETO: Fiscal impact.
4 MR. DUNN: We will proceed with
5 that the first thing next week and then
6 defer, if you have cross-examination left
7 tonight, defer that until some other night.
8 Is that okay?
9 MR. SEGRETO: I would appreciate
10 it, however, if my cross-examination of the
11 fiscal impact people from Rutgers would not
12 proceed next week, because I have got some
13 things that I have got to do with the
14 planners before I do my cross of him.
15 How long do you think your direct
16 will be of him?
17 MR. KIENZ: That will be
18 relatively short, one-half hour, maybe 45
19 minutes.
20 MR. DUNN: Mr. Kienz, you should
21 have another witness available next week.
22 Is that all right?
23 MR. KIENZ: We will see what we
24 can do.
25 MR. SEGRETO: What I suggest is, if
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 he is only going to be half an hour, I will
2 go through the entire report and prepare
3 myself so I can do my cross-examination of
4 him next week.
5 MR. KIENZ: That was delivered to
6 your office.
7 MR. SEGRETO: I just got it today.
8 MR. KIENZ: Probably yesterday,
9 but that's all right. You are within the
10 24-hour.
11 MR. DUNN: Let's go.
12 MR. SEGRETO: I will make it my
13 business to be ready to cross-examine him
14 next week.
15 MR. DUNN: Let's go as far as we
16 can with the goal of cutting off around
17 ten, if you are still able to.
18 Q Ms. Staines, a pleasure to see you
19 again.
20 A Good to see you again.
21 Q Now that the amenities are over
22 with, we can do business.
23 Since the last meeting when I began
24 cross-examining you, have you or your office --
25 A Excuse me.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Have you since last -- the last
2 meeting or your office generated any supplemental
3 documents dealing with the planning issues related
4 to this case?
5 A No.
6 Q Since the last meeting, have you
7 attempted to obtain the 1991 Periodic Report?
8 A No.
9 Q I take it that your testimony today
10 would be the same as it was at the last meeting,
11 that is to say, you have not examined and,
12 therefore, do not know what comments or content of
13 the 1991 Periodic Report of the master plan is?
14 A I believe I said at the last meeting
15 that I may have read it. I didn't recall.
16 Since the last meeting, I did not take the
17 opportunity to reread that document.
18 Q Would it be correct to say that this
19 evening, as you are here under oath, you still
20 cannot say under oath that you have reviewed the
21 1991 Periodic Report of the master plan, and,
22 therefore, you do not know what its contents are?
23 A I didn't say that.
24 Q Well, why don't you tell me if you
25 have reviewed the 1991 Periodic Report.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A I said I did not recall if I can.
2 Q All right. Do you recall anything
3 that is contained in the 1991 Periodic Report
4 element of the master plan?
5 A At this moment I cannot.
6 Perhaps, if you have a question about it, I
7 can refresh my memory.
8 Q Well, I don't want to stimulate or
9 suggest any responses to you.
10 I am trying to find out if you have a
11 present recollection of any contents,
12 recommendations or comments made in the 1991
13 Periodic Report.
14 A I don't recall that document
15 specifically.
16 Q Well, do you recall it generally?
17 A I recall -- I am aware, but I do not
18 recall specifically having read it.
19 Q I understand. You said that three
20 times.
21 Now I am asking you if you have any
22 recollection of any general comments in that
23 Periodic Report.
24 A Mr. Segreto, I do not read items for
25 the purpose of memorizing every word.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 I understand the document, and if I intend
2 to read that document for the purpose of doing the
3 planning report, I generally entertain it. I
4 don't recall that specific document. I don't know
5 how much more clearly I can state this.
6 If you bring a specific question to my
7 attention, I will attempt to answer it.
8 Q Would it be correct to say, however,
9 that in offering the testimony, which you have
10 heretofore given and expressing certain net
11 opinions concerning the relationship of this
12 application to the master plan documents, you did
13 not include in that net opinion any information
14 which you glean as the result of a specific review
15 of the 1991 Periodic Report?
16 A If I understand your question
17 correctly, the opinions that I had placed before
18 the board were based upon the master plan.
19 Q That's 1984?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q All right. And would it be correct
22 to say, so that I don't extenuate this
23 unreasonably, the opinions concerning the
24 relationship of this application to the master
25 plan that you expressed by way of conclusion, are
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 based upon your review of the 1984 master plan
2 document? Is that so?
3 A Yes. That is correct.
4 Q And no other master plan document?
5 A Mr. Segreto, you continue to put
6 words in my mouth, and I do not appreciate that.
7 Q You must forgive me.
8 I am not putting any words in your mouth.
9 I am trying to elicit from you your present
10 recollection and your testimony.
11 Now, was any part of any opinion that you
12 expressed concerning the relationship of this
13 application to any master plan document, was any
14 of that testimony related to the 1991 Periodic
15 Report?
16 A I don't recall.
17 Q Now we are going to start asking you
18 some questions about the ferry terminal.
19 A Uh-huh.
20 Q You remember about the ferry
21 terminal. Right?
22 A I remember there is a ferry
23 terminal. Correct.
24 Q You know there is a ferry terminal
25 there now?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A Yes, there is.
2 Q And there is proposed that that
3 ferry terminal be demolished. Isn't that so?
4 A Actually, I have no testimony of
5 that.
6 Q Do you know if part of this
7 application contemplates the demolition of the
8 existing ferry terminal?
9 A Actually, I would have no knowledge
10 of that.
11 Q All right. And as far as you know,
12 the existing ferry terminal will continue to
13 exist?
14 A The existing structure may.
15 Q Well, is it your understanding that
16 the structure is going to be continued but that
17 the use is going to be changed?
18 A No. I don't believe I testified to
19 that either.
20 Q Well, do you know one way or the
21 other whether or not, if this application is
22 approved and all the dust settles on any resulting
23 litigation, the project begins to be built,
24 whether or not an integral part of it is going to
25 be the demolition of the existing ferry terminal?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A No, I do not know whether the
2 existing ferry terminal will be demolished.
3 Q Is it your understanding when the
4 dust settles if the developer has his way, there
5 are going to be two ferry terminals on the
6 property?
7 A Is that a question, Mr. Segreto?
8 Q Pardon?
9 A Is that a question, Mr. Segreto?
10 Do I know if there will be two ferry
11 terminals? No, I do not.
12 Q Is it your understanding, as the
13 planner who has done the planning analysis of this
14 vast project, that you do not know if there are
15 going to be, according to the plans of your
16 client, two ferry terminals on the site?
17 A We have planned for one ferry
18 terminal.
19 Use of the existing structure is not a part
20 of my testimony.
21 Q Well, it's part of the plan?
22 A It is not a part of my testimony.
23 Q I understand, but are you telling me
24 that your testimony doesn't relate to the entirety
25 of the planned development application and that
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 you only testify concerning a part of it?
2 A I have testified to the portions of
3 the plan that I have knowledge of.
4 Q Well, based upon your knowledge of
5 the plan, is your understanding that the ferry
6 terminal building is going to be raized and
7 demolished -- r-a-i-z-e-d -- and demolished or is
8 it your understanding that it's going to continue
9 to be there?
10 A I don't know the fate of the
11 existing building.
12 Q Don't you think that before the
13 members of the board, the public fiduciaries, the
14 members of the planning board, don't you think
15 they are entitled to know whether or not the
16 existing terminal building is going to be
17 demolished and replaced with something else or
18 whether it's going to continue to exist?
19 A When the subject comes up, I am
20 certain they will be interested and we will
21 provide an answer.
22 Q When do you expect the subject to
23 come up?
24 A Mr. Segreto, the subject of the
25 existing building is not a subject of this
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 application. We are relocating the ferry terminal
2 to a new location. The existing building is not a
3 subject of this testimony.
4 Q Your understanding is that this
5 application doesn't present from any of the
6 owner's plans for the existing ferry terminal?
7 A I am not aware of any plans for the
8 existing ferry terminal.
9 Q Could you tell me what lot and block
10 number or numbers the existing ferry terminal is
11 located upon?
12 A Not off the top of my head, Mr.
13 Segreto, no.
14 Q You are the planner -- forgive me --
15 I don't want to seem to be intemperate or
16 impatient with you.
17 A That's quite all right.
18 Q The planner doesn't know what the
19 plan -- unit plan is, who in the world can I ask
20 about that?
21 MR. KIENZ: I object to that.
22 Q I will withdraw the question.
23 That's not really a question.
24 A That's correct, Mr. Segreto.
25 Q It's sort of an act of despair on my
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 part.
2 You don't know any of that. Is that right?
3 A I didn't say. I said I could not
4 recall at this moment. I do not have the plan in
5 front of me, nor do I memorize the lot and block
6 numbers.
7 I am sorry, Mr. Segreto, my memory doesn't
8 work in that regard.
9 Q Well, does the existing ferry
10 terminal have an accessorial parking lot?
11 A Yes, there is an accessory parking
12 lot.
13 Q How many parking spaces are on that
14 accessorial parking lot?
15 A I believe it's in the vicinity of
16 2300 parking spaces. I don't know the exact
17 count.
18 Q Are those 2300 parking spaces which
19 now are accessorial to the existing ferry terminal
20 under this planned development application, which
21 is before the board, is that lot going to continue
22 to exist unchanged, undiminished, unexpanded?
23 A No.
24 Q What is going to happen to that
25 parking lot?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A Over a period of years that parking
2 area will be phased into construction of various
3 elements of the planned development, and parking
4 for the ferry, to relocate the ferry terminal will
5 subsequently be relocated to be more proximate to
6 the facility.
7 Q Well, if the parking space which
8 subserves the existing ferry terminal is
9 ultimately going to be put to another use, are you
10 not able to draw any conclusions as a planner as
11 to whether or not the ferry terminal, when it
12 loses its accessorial parking spaces, will
13 continue to be operative?
14 A Mr. Segreto, you didn't ask me that
15 question before.
16 You asked me the fate of the building.
17 I told you I did not know.
18 My understanding is the ferry terminal use
19 had been relocated to the cove.
20 Q Well, when you say it will be
21 relocated, are you telling me that it will no
22 longer be a ferry terminal where it is now?
23 A Yes. That is correct.
24 Q All right. So you know that would.
25 Tell me now what is going to be done with
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 the building. Is the ferry terminal going to be
2 demolished?
3 Is it going to continue to exist? Which is
4 it?
5 A Mr. Segreto, I do not know the
6 answer to that question.
7 Q How can the board make a
8 determination as to what will happen to that
9 building if somebody doesn't tell us?
10 You can't tell us. Is that right?
11 MR. DUNN: Because the board
12 knows of its own knowledge that the ferry
13 terminal building is a boat.
14 MR. SEGRETO: Is what?
15 MR. DUNN: Is a boat.
16 MR. SEGRETO: Is a boat?
17 MR. DUNN: Yes.
18 Q Is the use -- you know what a "use"
19 is under the Land Use Act, don't you?
20 A Yes, Mr. Segreto.
21 Q Is the ferry terminal a principal
22 use of that property?
23 A At which point in time?
24 Q Now.
25 A No, it is not.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q It's not a use?
2 A Are you speaking before the planned
3 development -- development application?
4 Q Now, at the present time, in case
5 you are not aware of it, this planned unit
6 development has not been approved.
7 A Yes, Mr. Segreto.
8 I am asking for your clarification.
9 Do you mean as part of the planned
10 development or the site as it exists?
11 Q If you or I or anyone else were to
12 go where the existing terminal is --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- for the purpose of taking a ride
15 to New York --
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- we can get on that terminal --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- the ferry and use it. Right?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And that is a use which is open and
22 available?
23 A That's correct.
24 Q And is that a principal use or is
25 that an accessorial use?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A I believe it is neither under the
2 current -- to be candid, I have had nothing to do
3 with the approval of the existing ferry terminal.
4 I have no additional knowledge of that site.
5 Q I understand, but you are a planner
6 and --
7 A Yes.
8 Q -- I ask you disjunctively, the
9 existing use, which you acknowledge is there, you
10 said either you or I can go and use the terminal,
11 and I ask you disjunctively is it a permitted use
12 or an accessorial use, and you said you don't
13 know.
14 Under the Land Use Act -- you are a planner
15 now -- is there a different kind of a use which is
16 neither a principal use nor an accessorial use?
17 A Yes, there are, Mr. Segreto, but I
18 did not testify --
19 Q You said, "Yes, there are"?
20 A Mr. Segreto, I did not testify to
21 the existing conditions on the site. I testified
22 to the planned development application.
23 Would you like to confine the question to
24 the ferry location under that application?
25 Q We must not be testy with one
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 another. I am trying to be courteous to you and
2 perform my function of asking questions, and I
3 would most respectfully ask that you perform your
4 function and answer my questions.
5 A Yes.
6 Q If you can't answer a question, say,
7 "I can't answer the question."
8 Please don't be professorial to me, and I
9 promise I will try not to be professorial to you.
10 A That's a deal.
11 Q Now, is there another kind of a use
12 under the Land Use Act other than a principal use
13 and an accessorial use?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Tell me what it is denoted to be
16 under the Land Use Act.
17 A Tell me -- I am sorry -- I don't
18 understand that question at all.
19 Q Well, you just said there is another
20 use out there, a third or a fourth or a fifth kind
21 of use other than -- other than --
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q -- an accessorial use or a principal
24 use?
25 A Yes.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q I am asking you now to tell me what
2 it is.
3 A There are conditional uses.
4 Q Is this a conditional use out there?
5 A To be candid, sir, I don't know. I
6 have not any knowledge of the existing conditions
7 of the ferry terminal.
8 Q Don't you know that Mr. Imperatore
9 many years ago got a use variance?
10 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I am
11 going to object to that question.
12 MR. SEGRETO: Let me finish it.
13 How can you object before it's finished?
14 Q Don't you know that many years ago
15 Mr. Imperatore's company applied for and obtained
16 a use variance for the existing ferry terminal
17 from the board of adjustment of this municipality?
18 MR. KIENZ: Objection; relevance.
19 MR. DUNN: The witness can
20 answer if she knows.
21 A I believe you advised me of that at
22 the last meeting.
23 Q Well, after I brought it to your
24 attention, did you take the trouble to go out and
25 find out if that was so?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A No.
2 Q Do you think it's important to know
3 whether or not --
4 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object
5 to that.
6 Here is the reason why --
7 MR. SEGRETO: Counsel, could you
8 let me finish my question.
9 MR. KIENZ: No. No, not this
10 time.
11 MR. DUNN: Let him finish his
12 question so we can hear it.
13 Then we will hear your objection.
14 Q Didn't you think, as the planner, it
15 was important for you to verify and know whether
16 or not one of the existing uses, which is intended
17 to be relocated and expanded, was granted by the
18 board of adjustment as a use variance?
19 A No.
20 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
21 Q Are you aware --
22 MR. SEGRETO: The question has been
23 answered, counsel.
24 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
25 I am only going to object for one
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 reason.
2 MR. SEGRETO: What are you
3 objecting to? One objects to a question.
4 There is no question pending.
5 MR. DUNN: Let's not toy with
6 each other.
7 Do you have something to say, Mr.
8 Kienz?
9 MR. KIENZ: Yes, I have something
10 to say.
11 We were going to exchange documents
12 and receive information and because -- I
13 understand there were problems -- we did
14 not receive it, so I think this line of
15 questioning, given the circumstances as the
16 result of some unforeseen illness, I don't
17 think it's quite appropriate.
18 MR. SEGRETO: All right.
19 Q Are you aware of the fact that if,
20 one, a property owner receives a use variance and
21 wishes to expand or relocate the location of the
22 use variance that they must apply for a use
23 variance under Section D of the Land Use Act?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Pardon?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A Yes.
2 Q Does this applicant propose to
3 change the location of the ferry terminal?
4 A Yes.
5 Q I want you to assume as a fact that
6 the ferry terminal, which exists at the present
7 time, was there and is there under the authority
8 of a use variance granted by the board of
9 adjustment of this municipality.
10 Under those circumstances, isn't it true
11 that under the Land Use Act to relocate and to
12 expand that use variance for the ferry terminal,
13 the applicant must apply to the board of
14 adjustment for a Section D variance?
15 MR. KIENZ: I am going to object.
16 That calls for a legal opinion. I
17 think we filed the application. We
18 understand what your ordinance says, and
19 that doesn't get to the heart of it.
20 MR. DUNN: I happen to think
21 that it totally misconstrues the ordinance,
22 because what's happening here is that
23 something that was previously granted as a
24 use variance is now being applied for as a
25 permitted use as part of the PUD.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 MR. KIENZ: That's correct.
2 MR. DUNN: But if the witness
3 can answer the question, we will let her
4 answer the question.
5 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Dunn, I am
6 accustomed to having my adversaries make
7 speaking objections.
8 I am not accustomed to a board
9 attorney in responding to an objection to
10 make a speaking response which suggests an
11 answer to a witness.
12 I think that's not appropriate, and
13 I would most respectfully appeal to your
14 good nature and your sense of fairness that
15 you should not do that. You really should
16 not do that.
17 MR. DUNN: I understand, Mr.
18 Segreto.
19 I think the record ought to be clear
20 that the premise of your questions is that
21 what's happening here is that something
22 that was granted by a variance is now just
23 simply being relocated.
24 0nder the Weehawken ordinance that
25 was granted a variance because it was not
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 part of the planned development.
2 It is now part of a planned
3 development, and I will hear your
4 arguments, of course, but a planned
5 development is a permitted use, and anybody
6 can take a variance and eliminate it --
7 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Dunn.
8 MR. DUNN: -- and substitute a
9 permitted use.
10 MR. SEGRETO: Mr. Dunn, I am very,
11 very familiar with each and every word in
12 the appropriate section of your ordinance
13 which talks about permitted accessorial
14 uses in the Planned Unit Development
15 District.
16 MR. DUNN: Uh-huh.
17 MR. SEGRETO: And I give you my
18 solemn assurance that I will dichotomize
19 that section of the ordinance with this
20 witness.
21 Right now I asked this witness a
22 generic question as a planner as to whether
23 or not if one has obtained a use variance
24 from the board of adjustment and wishes to
25 expand or relocate the locus of the use
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 variance, whether a use variance is
2 required.
3 She can respond to that generic
4 question either "I don't know," "Yes,
5 that's so," or "No, it's not so," for the
6 following reasons.
7 MR. DUNN: Let her respond.
8 Q Would you respond?
9 A Mr. Segreto, I did answer that
10 particular question earlier.
11 You asked me a different question, and you
12 asked me to state or assume for a fact that this
13 particular ferry terminal was relocated.
14 I don't recall, unfortunately, the latter
15 part of the question because of the passage of
16 time.
17 Q One of the things that we are
18 permitted to do and that experts such as yourself
19 are incessantly doing is to respond to
20 hypothetical questions in which you are asked to
21 assume as true certain premises, and I have asked
22 you to assume that in this application the ferry
23 terminal is going to be relocated.
24 Now, I have asked you if one has obtained a
25 use variance and wishes to expand it or to
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 relocate it, in your understanding of the Land Use
2 Act, is the holder of such an extant use variance
3 required to apply for another use variance to
4 relocate it to a different locus or to expand it?
5 A Well, that particular question can
6 be answered very easily if you answer one question
7 for me.
8 Is that under the same zone or in a
9 different zone?
10 Q Well, first of all, I am asking you
11 questions about Section 70D of the Municipal Land
12 Use Act 40:55-70D.
13 It has six subsections dealing with use
14 variances.
15 You are aware of that?
16 A Yes, there are six. I will take
17 your word for it at this moment.
18 Q One has to do with an expansion of a
19 nonconforming use?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And I am not asking you a question
22 about the ordinance of this municipality.
23 I am asking you a question about the land
24 use statute.
25 A I understand, Mr. Segreto.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Under the land use statute, if one
2 seeks to expand an extant nonconforming use or
3 relocate it under the Land Use Act, is that person
4 required to apply for a use variance?
5 A If that is accomplished under the
6 same underlying zone, yes.
7 Q Now, is it your understanding that
8 since the time that the use variance was granted
9 to Imperatore's company for the ferry terminal,
10 that the ordinance dealing with ferry terminals of
11 his municipality has been changed?
12 A Mr. Segreto, I don't know any first
13 variance that you refer to that was granted, so I
14 really don't know the history of the ordinance and
15 the history of its changes.
16 Q You don't even know how the ferry --
17 how long the ferry terminal has been there?
18 A Actually, I do not, no.
19 Q Now, in connection with this
20 proposed relocated ferry terminal -- and, by the
21 way, I promise you that I am going to come back
22 and ask you some questions about the specific
23 section of the ordinance that deals with ferry
24 terminals and Planned Unit Developments, and we
25 will go through that carefully together.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 This existing ferry terminal that is there,
2 is the utilization of it at the present time
3 limited to residents of Weehawken?
4 A No, I am certain it's not.
5 Q Is the existing terminal, ferry
6 terminal, limited to people who either live on or
7 work on the subject property, the waterfront
8 property owned by your clients?
9 A Actually, I don't know the character
10 of the ridership.
11 Q I am sorry?
12 A I don't know the character of the
13 ridership.
14 Q I am not asking you about the
15 character of the drivers.
16 I am asking you about the operation itself.
17 A I understand.
18 Q Is the operation one in which people
19 who do not live on the waterfront properties or
20 who do not work on the waterfront properties, are
21 those people, if you know, precluded from using
22 the ferry?
23 A No, they are not precluded.
24 Q Let us assume that a stranger to
25 these parts who comes from far away Passaic
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 County, such as myself, and I were to drive down
2 with my wife one evening for the purpose of going
3 on the ferry to go to the theater in New York,
4 would anyone say, "Wait a second, you are Mr.
5 Segreto, you come from Passaic County, you can't
6 use our ferry"? Is there such a constraint?
7 A I am not aware of any.
8 Q For example, the new ferry that's
9 going to be built, the same hypothetical, Mr.
10 Segreto, and I want you to assume to be true, that
11 I would be accompanied by my very beautiful wife,
12 and we were to come down to the new ferry, would
13 anyone turn to us and say, "Oh, no, this is only
14 for people who live here or who work here"?
15 A Mr. Segreto, I can't speak to the
16 way that they would operate the ferry, but I do
17 not believe that would be the case.
18 Q As a matter of fact, on your direct
19 examination, you appeared fully competent to speak
20 to the subject because you said that it will meet
21 a regional need for additional ferry service?
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q And you indicated that that was one
24 of the beneficial public purposes which would be
25 subserved by the granting of this application.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Isn't that so?
2 A I believe that's true.
3 Q So you can speak to the fact that
4 the new facility is going to meet a regional
5 outreach, isn't it?
6 A Yes, it will have that benefit.
7 Q And that means it's not going to be
8 primarily limited to people who live or work on
9 this Planned Unit Development. Isn't that so?
10 A I did not say that at all.
11 Q Well, if it's going to be regional
12 --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- doesn't that mean it's not going
15 to be limited?
16 A It will not be exclusive to the
17 residents and workers.
18 Q Well, is it your understanding that
19 those who will use this facility primarily will be
20 people who live and work on the planned
21 development? Is that your understanding?
22 A We designed the ferry terminal to
23 benefit primarily the residents and the workers of
24 the planned development.
25 Q Well, don't you think that the
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 existing terminal with it's existing capacity is
2 adequate to meet the needs of the potential
3 residents and workers on this development?
4 A There are no residential --
5 Q Pardon?
6 A There are no residents and workers.
7 Q I said the "potential residents."
8 A No.
9 Q You don't think so?
10 A No.
11 Q How many people do you understand
12 will live in the residential units in this
13 development if it were approved and built?
14 A I don't have specific numbers, Mr.
15 Segreto, but I believe this impact refers to
16 approximately 3200, approximately 3500 residents.
17 Q And how many people will work on the
18 site?
19 A The same document made reference to
20 approximately 8,000 employees.
21 Q 8,000 employees who will work on
22 this site?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Well, then your facility, which is
25 going to subserve 7,000, won't even subserve the
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 needs of the development, would they?
2 A I am confident.
3 Q You just gave me a number of eight,
4 and -- that comes up to 11 five?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q I thought you said this would serve
7 about 7,000 people per day?
8 A No, I believe I pointed out the
9 future projections were closer to 9,000.
10 Q 9,000.
11 So this new ferry terminal isn't even going
12 to meet the needs of the site. Is that right?
13 A No, that's not correct, Mr. Segreto.
14 Q By the way, the rapid transit, is
15 that what that plan is, is there such a thing, a
16 rapid transit terminal, or something?
17 A The light rail terminal.
18 Q What is it called?
19 A Light rail.
20 Q Light rail.
21 Is there going to be a terminal point on
22 this site?
23 A Yes, there will.
24 Q Where is it going to start?
25 A On the site.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q You have told me that the terminal
2 --
3 MR. DUNN: You don't need to
4 raise your voice.
5 Q You told me the terminal is going to
6 be on the site.
7 Where is it going to start? Is it going to
8 start from one end of the site and go to the other
9 end of the site? Is it going to start up in
10 Sussex County? Is it going to start down in
11 Bayonne? Where is it going to start?
12 A Actually, I believe I testified I
13 did not have knowledge of the actual starting
14 point.
15 I understood it served portions of Bergen
16 and Passaic County.
17 Q Now, do you have any idea on this
18 light rail facility, which is going to end up in
19 Weehawken, on a daily basis, how many people will
20 be transported to this terminal on this site?
21 A Mr. Segreto, may I correct one
22 statement?
23 It will not --
24 Q You may do so.
25 A It will not end at Weehawken. It
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 will go through Weehawken. I do not know the
2 exact ridership -- I am not sure those projections
3 are finalized -- that would be provided by New
4 Jersey Transit.
5 Q Do you anticipate that any people
6 who will use the system both ways will be getting
7 off in Weehawken to get on the ferry terminal?
8 A There is a possibility that that
9 will happen, yes.
10 Q Could you tell me what the outreach
11 of this light rail system is?
12 A That I cannot. I have no knowledge
13 of that.
14 Q Is it going to be limited to Hudson
15 County?
16 A I really don't know the answer to
17 that, Mr. Segreto.
18 Q Do you know how many municipalities
19 in Hudson County will be subserved by it?
20 A No, I do not.
21 Q Is Jersey City one of them?
22 A I really don't know.
23 Q How about Hoboken?
24 A I believe Hoboken, yes, and possibly
25 Jersey City as well.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Any towns north of Weehawken?
2 A Possibly.
3 Q Well, you told me it's not going to
4 end at Weehawken.
5 Is it going to make a right-hand turn and
6 go out into the river?
7 You said it's not ending in Weehawken.
8 Where is it going to end?
9 A It goes westbound, Mr. Segreto.
10 Q Where westbound?
11 A West of Weehawken.
12 MR. KIENZ: Mr. Chairman, I am
13 going to object.
14 She testified that she didn't know
15 these answers. We are going round and
16 round here.
17 MR. DUNN: She just testified
18 it's going west.
19 Q Now you are telling me it's coming
20 west of Weehawken.
21 Tell me what towns west of Weehawken will
22 be subserved by this facility on this site.
23 MR. KIENZ: Objection.
24 A Mr. Segreto, I don't know. I do not
25 know where the stations are to be located.
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 Q Don't you recall, when I began
2 cross-examining you, that you explicitly testified
3 that this will meet a regional need and that it is
4 not intended to primarily subserve the needs and
5 serve the people on this particular project?
6 Don't you remember having said that
7 already?
8 A I don't believe I said that.
9 Q You don't think so.
10 Have you read your transcript, the
11 transcript of your testimony?
12 A From this last --
13 Q Yes.
14 A No, I have not.
15 Q Now, do you know what the bedroom
16 count of the residential units is going to be?
17 A I do have a document of some sort
18 that counts the bedrooms, but I don't have it off
19 the top of my head.
20 Q Well, of course, the response that
21 you don't have it off the top of your head and
22 that there is a document invites me to say, why
23 don't you get the document out so that you could
24 have the top of your head refreshed by reviewing
25 the document, which will give you that
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 information.
2 Will you get it out? Do you have it there?
3 A It may be in one of these files.
4 MR. DUNN: Are you ready, Ms.
5 Staines?
6 THE WITNESS: Mr. Segreto, I am
7 having difficulty finding the file. My
8 files are in a little disarray since they
9 were, unfortunately, pulled apart a few
10 weeks ago, but I can give you some --
11 perhaps we can come to some findings.
12 Q Why don't you identify the document
13 you are using.
14 A Yes, this is a work sheet that was
15 supplied to the generator of the fiscal impact
16 report, and what this document does, outlines
17 building by building the numbers of one-bedroom,
18 two-bedroom, and three-bedroom dwellings in the
19 overall community, and this was utilized by --
20 MR. GOULD: Hold on.
21 MR. SEGRETO: Is the mike working?
22 THE WITNESS: I think so.
23 MR. GOULD: Please continue.
24 THE WITNESS: This particular
25 document was used by Dr. Listokin, who
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 generated the Fiscal Impact Report or a
2 portion of it.
3 Q Now that you have it before you, can
4 you answer my question?
5 A I have to do some totals. I did
6 this all in a subtotal fashion. I have to make
7 sure I have my categories correct.
8 Q Are you telling me the document you
9 have before you is your work product?
10 A Yes.
11 Q May I have it marked for
12 identification, please.
13 A Certainly. It's my original
14 version. I need a copy made.
15 MR. SEGRETO: The number?
16 MR. DUNN: O-23.
17 MR. SEGRETO: O-23.
18 (Document is marked as Exhibit
19 O-23.)
20 Q I show you O-23.
21 A I beg your pardon?
22 Q I show you O-23.
23 A Yes.
24 Q These are your original handwritten
25 notes?
Staines - Cross - Segreto
1 A That's correct.
2 Q I am sorry. Those are your original
3 notes?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When did you prepare it?
6 A I believe they were prepared in May
7 or June of '99.
8 Q You don't have any date on it, do
9 you?
10 A No.
11 Q The information that you put into
12 those charts and tables, where did you get the
13 information, from whom?
14 A From my partner, Michael and myself.
15 Q The gentleman seated next to you?
16 A Yes.
17 Q The same person who just handed that
18 to you a few minutes ago?
19 A Handed it back to me, yes.
20 Q Now, from those bulk of pages, can
21 you tell me how many bedrooms there will be in the
22 residential units on this property?
23 A As I said, I have to apply a little
24 math, but, yes, we have 731 dwellings of
25 one-bedroom, 420 dwellings of two bedrooms, 211
Staines - Cross - Segreto

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